just basically copy the yiquan model

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby everything on Thu May 11, 2017 2:02 pm

Maybe you do exactly this already? After reading all the threads where we beat that horse to death 9x over, it seems very useful to do standing (for whatever reasons you prefer) and then do basically a lot of sparring. Basically seek the same thing the original yiquan group did.

It will be ok to bring in xingyi, taiji, whatever. Various sparring formats (with safety equipment) etc. can be used: hands only, kickboxing, throws only, etc. and you change it up.

I'm not planning to do this, but if a bunch of RSF people happened to be nearby, I sure would be tempted to join you.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby windwalker on Thu May 11, 2017 2:28 pm

everything wrote:Maybe you do exactly this already? After reading all the threads where we beat that horse to death 9x over, it seems very useful to do standing (for whatever reasons you prefer) and then do basically a lot of sparring. Basically seek the same thing the original yiquan group did.

It will be ok to bring in xingyi, taiji, whatever. Various sparring formats (with safety equipment) etc. can be used: hands only, kickboxing, throws only, etc. and you change it up.

I'm not planning to do this, but if a bunch of RSF people happened to be nearby, I sure would be tempted to join you.


why not just do boxing.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 11, 2017 3:36 pm

The Yiquan we see nowadays isn't all that combat-oriented either, as many practitioners are also caught up in the Push Hand format and mentality.

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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby johnwang on Thu May 11, 2017 4:10 pm

C.J.W. wrote:The Yiquan we see nowadays isn't all that combat-oriented either, as many practitioners are also caught up in the Push Hand format and mentality.

I also don't understand their training priority. If you move in, your opponent will move back. It's your "entering strategy" that can help you to build that arm contact. Before you can assume that your arm can contact on your opponent's arm, you will need to train your "entering strategy" first.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby Strange on Thu May 11, 2017 4:11 pm

the entering "strategy" should always be speed
:)
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu May 11, 2017 5:09 pm

The Yiquan model,by way of its founder, cannot be copied until one has full and complete understanding of a traditional system. As old master Wang a Xing I master Trained only high hands of other systems with a the ability to know the principles well enough to understand.
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Thu May 11, 2017 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby everything on Thu May 11, 2017 5:38 pm

How do they propagate the art? Sounds like people here are skeptical.

Incorporating boxing seems good. Then what is the difference with MMA? Basically I guess you zhan zhuang and Shi Li on your own then go spar MMA. Seems fine by me.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby Appledog on Thu May 11, 2017 6:39 pm

This post is supposed to be deleted because I only keep my most recent 100 posts. An admin should delete it or allow users to delete their own posts to save space.
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu May 11, 2017 6:50 pm

I did the same thing, kind of, but not just with standing. I used Xinyiliuhequan as a model and took techniques from Baguazhang, Taijiquan and Tongbiquan (there were many similar techniques in these four systems and I chose which I preferred) and started doing them standing and as line drills. No forms. To be fair, these systems were already doing that to some extent, depending on who was teaching, but I took it a step further. Pretty much every master that I've met that can fight has a system like this. Line drills is the way. Never met an Yiquan practitioner that could fight.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby windwalker on Thu May 11, 2017 7:05 pm

everything wrote:How do they propagate the art? Sounds like people here are skeptical.

Incorporating boxing seems good. Then what is the difference with MMA? Basically I guess you zhan zhuang and Shi Li on your own then go spar MMA. Seems fine by me.



Boxing is very highly specialized and takes a while to be good at it. In most CMA systems bringing this into the system to augment it
tends to change the nature of the system itself. Of course if one is just looking for direct fighting usage, and system integrity is not a problem
this might work out.

IME it begs to question as to if one would ever reach the main skill sets of the system they were augmenting it to.
This is true of boxing and other CMA systems used to fill in perceived gaps as some say,
the movements and theory can be quite different.

In my own case, I could not use white crane, and mantis together...the styles and systems were too different in all ways.
Others may be able to do this, I never could....
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 11, 2017 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby everything on Thu May 11, 2017 7:35 pm

For this hypothetical case, system integrity is not a concern for me except to the extent a consistent style just suits you personally. I like taijiquan so I see it in everything. However the zhan zhuang is an element I would doubt would be common in MMA but is common in IMA as Maarten said.

Doesn't have to include boxing, but I'm not sure where the strikes come from. Various arts have striking sparring. Boxing guard is adapted in MMA afaik. Hence Muay Thai is popular but Rickson used to use that San Ti Shi like stance and Fedor would adapt his hand locations depending on the opponent (like CroCop). You could ideally take on other styles, but this order is getting too tall. Exposure to all Olympic styles seems useful (due to their wide popularity). Too difficult. I guess I'd want to learn whatever RSF could teach.
Last edited by everything on Thu May 11, 2017 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby Strange on Thu May 11, 2017 10:09 pm

everything,
with due respect , actually what need to be considered and thought out has been done.
for example, yiquan horizontal hook fist is from boxing.
this is not the problem

the "problem" is individual aptitude, level/depth of understanding and commitment
to put in the hours of practice.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby everything on Fri May 12, 2017 12:04 pm

Oh yeah no disrespect to the yiquan people. I agree about the problem. For people who like IMA but don't want to do the work, it seems like they (we/me haha) could just do the zhan zhuang and some kind of reasonable subset of sparring (subset of all available human sparring). Seems way too common sense, though, huh.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Because its not true, without knowledge of technique for any given situation there is no idea with what intent the Zhan zhuang is to be applied, offering you the opportunity to become only that to your opponent, a standing post or a pile. Both of which are easily dispatched.
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Re: just basically copy the yiquan model

Postby everything on Fri May 12, 2017 5:38 pm

"formless" is a weird idea, but it doesn't seem like anyone says zhan zhuang and no forms is an entire art.
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