santishi feeling

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: santishi feeling

Postby Yeung on Mon May 22, 2017 2:24 am

aiasthewall wrote:As an aside, I did some damage to my shoulders by doing long standing periods with my shoulders forward in the sockets. The combination of splitting action + intent forward causes a strong impulse, ime, to pull the shoulders forward out of there sockets. Keeping the intention "back" as well as forward helps keep the shoulders set in their sockets. This is splitting, anyhow.


This sounds like a case of shoulder dislocation, and most cause of it is contracting concentrically and ballistic stretching at the same time that developed a contrasted action of contracting the muscles inward and pulling the muscles outward. Some Taiji teachers will tell you that is this double heavies. It is a known problem with boxing practitioners. My suggestion is to utilize the muscles under your armpits to left your arms instead of contracting your shoulders.
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Yeung on Mon May 22, 2017 2:31 am

everything wrote:Thanks I will try a more backward as well as chopping feel.

I can't detect any meridians so that will go on the back burner .


I do not think anyone can sense the movements in the meridians but one can generating some sorts of impacts on the meridians and then he or her might feel something.
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Miro on Wed May 24, 2017 6:01 am

I teach various groups of my students (martial arts students including xingyi students, qigong students, acupuncture students) how to feel and how to produce the flow of qi in every meridian (in both directions) and also to switch among them, for example to switch from heart to lung or pericard meridians on the inner side of arm, etc.
I also think any feeling of aggressiveness in santishi is incorrect. Usually every jin and every force is a variation of vertical force (it is vertical force transformed into horizontal direction) and because vertical force ultimately means Sancai (Heaven, Earth and Man), so when practicing santishi (san is san), the student shoud be in state of "tian ren he yi" (Heavens and Man is one), just being concentrated to feel nothing and to feel everything at the same time (to be Heaven if you can accept that).
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby everything on Wed May 24, 2017 7:19 am

I can accept that, but personally I don't necessarily feel what people talk about (yet).

I tried a more backward and chopping down feeling/intent. What happened for me is my legs felt "heavier" with more energy sinking downward kind of feeling. Plus a sort of "pressure" under my forward arm. It's interesting. Not being a student of xingyiquan, I guess I'd say: that makes sense if you just completed piquan. If you are holding santishi as a sort of "ready" posture, it feels more forward (with some caveat that people already said should be balanced in backward and neutral) to me.

Most of you may know that lately my mindset is to do various standing (with all of this "internal" work) and not so much form, plus sparring (not getting to do this :( ).
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Yeung on Thu May 25, 2017 2:15 am

This is interesting, from santishi to Zhuangzi 庄子 and Western pantheism.
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Yeung on Thu May 25, 2017 2:29 am

http://odip.webs.com/Tian-ren-he-yi.pdf

Tian-ren-he-yi 天人合一 (unity of heaven and the human). The basic point of the conception of tian-ren-he-yi as one general thesis in classical Chinese philosophy is to emphasize the unity (he-yi 合一) of heaven (tian 天) and the human being and human society (ren 人) in the two related senses. In a general metaphysical sense, the human being and human society are considered to be parts of heaven as nature. In a moral sense, heaven has its moral mission as tian-ming 天命that is to be implemented through the human being’s moral virtue and moral conduct. In a unified metaphysical and moral sense, heaven as endowed (original) human moral nature exists in all human being.
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Miro on Thu May 25, 2017 9:50 am

That is correct, Yeung, however, this website is not about philosophy or morality, this is talking about tian ren he yi in martial arts (and perhaps also a little bit about it in Chinese medicine and meditation, neidan, bu si 不死) and martial arts is about practical experience, not about philosophical theories. And so, it has absolutely nothing to do with Western pantheism. :-)
There are so many points you needs to be aware at the same time during even the simplest martial movements that it is absolutely impossible to control them all. So you gradually find that feeling when everything is ok, as it should be (and when something goes wrong, you know it because the feeling is different) and that feeling is just a flow, a way of Heaven - one does not act (not even having an intention) during santishi. :-) And if he does not act (not having yi or even xin), what is it then?
We have entered a voyeuristic, or "phanic," era where esoteric ideas and methods are only unveiled and put within reach of everyone because they no longer have any chance of being understood. (Mircea Eliade)
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby everything on Thu May 25, 2017 1:45 pm

I don't (get to) study yiquan but the "almost movement" thing as well as qigong (not really addressed in that art, I believe) is pretty interesting. When I adjust my intent (as if I'm about to go forward or am still chopping) the energy feeling is very tangibly different. Qi really follows the yi. The "almost movement" aligned with this feeling is really pretty interesting. Probably one has to do this as a still or barely moving exercise to try to start tuning into these things, then get that all on auto-pilot.

I don't have a "fighting" application or sparring story for you, but one of my "applications" is standing in goal as a makeshift goalkeeper in indoor soccer (more action than outdoor). Basically you are "standing" in a ready/relaxed stance all the time, slightly shifting your position, tactically. You pretty much do NOTHING a lot of the time, then suddenly you spring into action and have to have a super fast motion or just a really strong stance (make yourself "big" and someone shoots a ball into you). So you get really bored waiting. You kind of have to do this kind of "standing" zhan zhuang thing, whether you know it or not, but I think the IMA practice is super, super useful for this kind of situation. In your mind you may think "you ain't getting by me" or "I can definitely dive down low so fast to beat your shot". That creates a certain intent and energy and a certain "almost movement". Everything that yiquan and the IMA writings talk about is spot on in this particular context (that is not the same as sparring or fighting, albeit). I'm sure there are many other sport examples, but goalkeeper is really a giant contrast between just "standing" and doing sudden actions while having some slight physicality/contact sport aspects.
Last edited by everything on Thu May 25, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Yeung on Fri May 26, 2017 2:28 am

There is a difference between responding to heaven and being one with heaven or in Western Pantheism terms of being one with the universe. It is important in santishi to have the correct intention in developing our sensitivity in our internal and external environments. The design of the santishi is to match the lung meridian in carrying out a chopping action. This technique involves the generation of impacts on the lung and lung meridian, and that is not a sensation to be generated by imagining being one with heaven. Breathing techniques also provided a sense of bodily motion or flow if one called it that. The practical application can be anything to do with a chopping action, and it is a very effective in blocking an incoming strike or a ball if you like. Please beware of people trying to entice you into some sort of meditation into being one with the universe, mindfulness, non-judgmental, etc.
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Miro on Fri May 26, 2017 5:09 am

Well, Western pantheism is not about being one with the universe. And I am afraid, I can not agree with your interpretation of santishi - to match the lung meridian in carrying out a chopping action is called piquan, not santishi (as well as standing in zuan, beng, pao and hengquan postures is not santishi, too). Santishi is something completely different, maybe you could start with the name itself. The only thing I can agree with you is that santishi is not any kind of imagination.
We have entered a voyeuristic, or "phanic," era where esoteric ideas and methods are only unveiled and put within reach of everyone because they no longer have any chance of being understood. (Mircea Eliade)
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Miro on Fri May 26, 2017 6:01 am

Ok, let me explain my view a little bit more: When we practice santishi, we usually stand in piquan posture. But that is just a coincidence because xingyi wuxing begins with piquan. If those old masters would start wuxing with fire, then we would practice santishi with paoquan... But santishi is not piquan or paoquan, neither lungs nor heart etc., it has nothing to do with those body forms - postures, organs, elements, colors, whatever. Santishi goes beyond the forms. And intention is just another form (type) of form, it is mental form. Therefore it is correct to say that santishi is (or should be) without intention. We can say: to act is preparation for non-acting (not doing), to think is basic requirement for non-thinking, to have an intention is training process for not having an intention. Santishi is shi (body posture) because we use our physical body to go beyond forms (physical postures or mental postures), to three abstract bodies (ti). And imagination is, of course, completely wrong road - it is only for those who can not do (what should be done) by physical body. Only if you can not do it with (in) your body, only then you can use imagination - but with imagination, you will never get it all (full). First in the body, only then in the mind, and in the end, throw away both body and mind.
We have entered a voyeuristic, or "phanic," era where esoteric ideas and methods are only unveiled and put within reach of everyone because they no longer have any chance of being understood. (Mircea Eliade)
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby everything on Fri May 26, 2017 6:56 am

First in the mind then in the body, but the specific posture feels different, so body then mind. It changes your mind which changes the energy. If you try to stand in santishi vs. in a more neutral posture, it will instantly feel different, even before you think about it. Posture is important, not just for musculoskeletal or mechanical or functional reasons.
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Yeung on Sat May 27, 2017 1:12 am

There are lots of differences between Pi and Pao:
1. The corresponding meridians are different
2. The corresponding solid organs are different
3. The postures are different
4. The steps are different
5. The intentions are different
6. The defensive strategies are different
7. The changes are different
But there is no difference to the untrained mind.
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Re: santishi feeling

Postby Miro on Sat May 27, 2017 11:15 am

Did anyone talk here that pi and pao are the same? No - we were talking about the fact that you are completely wrong if you think that santishi is standing in piquan. But maybe my English is not good enough to explain it clearly and so you did not understand what I said. If that is so, sorry, let us to leave it... Thanks for the discussion, good luck.
We have entered a voyeuristic, or "phanic," era where esoteric ideas and methods are only unveiled and put within reach of everyone because they no longer have any chance of being understood. (Mircea Eliade)
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