Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby johnwang on Wed May 24, 2017 11:38 pm

C.J.W. wrote:This, IMO, is actually one of the key differences between northern and southern CMA systems. Many northern stylists tend to look down on southern styles because they see a lot of isolated arm and hand movements that appear uncoordinated with the lower body.

But this separation of Yin (stillness) and Yang (motion) is just another way of creating power and using the body. That's why in WC the focus is on 肘底力, or sinking elbow power, as opposed to the whole-body power 整勁 that is often discussed in northern styles. It is also what allows practitioners to execute fast hand techniques that are considered the trademark of WC.

But you have to train "body push/pull arm" first before you can train "body chase arm". If you skip the power generation training and just go directly into the speed training, you will end like a preying mantis guy that you may understand speed but you don't understand power.

Should you train power first, or speed first?
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Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby Steve James on Thu May 25, 2017 6:05 am

It makes sense that, if seeking power, the more parts used, the more potential there will be for power. Either the parts will be coordinated or they won't. Using the whole body will enable the generation of more power.

An individual part will be faster, and the faster an object moves, the more force it will produce on impact. But, it will be the result of even finer coordination. It's like the famous "one inch" punch. The force has to be generated quickly in a short space.

So, I'd say that it's a tradeoff. But, I'd say there are more people who can generate more force with their whole body than those who can with an isolated kick or punch. In the end, it will depend on the skill of the practitioner to apply the force.

I think coordination of hands/arms and feet/legs is as natural as walking. If your right foot is forward, and your weight is on it, the left foot will probably move next. There are just some bio-mechanical necessities that will make coordination inevitable.

Sure, if one does not move the legs, there is no need to coordinate them with the hands. Boxers do throw combinations without changing stance, but I'd argue that they still coordinate their punches with their legs by using their trunks (core). Tyson didn't throw arm punches.
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Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 25, 2017 7:02 am

johnwang wrote:But you have to train "body push/pull arm" first before you can train "body chase arm". If you skip the power generation training and just go directly into the speed training, you will end like a preying mantis guy that you may understand speed but you don't understand power.

Should you train power first, or speed first?


That's why the fundamental WC form, Sil Nim Tao, is done very slowly while using the intent to engage the fascia and develop structure.
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Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby marvin8 on Thu May 25, 2017 11:53 am

johnwang wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:This, IMO, is actually one of the key differences between northern and southern CMA systems. Many northern stylists tend to look down on southern styles because they see a lot of isolated arm and hand movements that appear uncoordinated with the lower body.

But this separation of Yin (stillness) and Yang (motion) is just another way of creating power and using the body. That's why in WC the focus is on 肘底力, or sinking elbow power, as opposed to the whole-body power 整勁 that is often discussed in northern styles. It is also what allows practitioners to execute fast hand techniques that are considered the trademark of WC.

But you have to train "body push/pull arm" first before you can train "body chase arm". If you skip the power generation training and just go directly into the speed training, you will end like a preying mantis guy that you may understand speed but you don't understand power.

Should you train power first, or speed first?

Boxers practice speed and power at the same time (e.g., jab, right cross combination), without "end like preying mantis guy." Power does not require a step. Another way power can be generated is weight shift or folding the hips (open & closing the kua).

When practicing, you should vary your speed, power and combinations in your punches. Every punch should not be a power punch. Punches serve a variety of purposes (e.g., set up, bridge, control, occupy the centerline, feint, position the opponent, blur vision, finish, etc.).

Jeet Kune Do says If the feet or body moves first, it is a much more obvious telegraph and your opponent will see it coming. You move your hand first, then land your foot, body weight, and power from the ground into the opponent. So, your power is still delivered.

Jeet Kune Do and fencing move their hand before their foot. Some reasons are faster, non-telegraphic, and ability to change (e.g., punch turn into trap, grab, hold, low to high punch, direction, etc.), determined by opponent's force.

@ 2:00, Demonstration of hand and foot movement scenarios. Hand moves before foot is faster.

@ 9:03, "Because, the moment the thruster feels his opponent's superior pressure his foot has not yet committed to the new position and he can retreat and counter."

Published on Oct 21, 2014
This video explores one of the most fundamental concepts of swordsmanship, actually of all close combat, that was named “True Times“ by English Renaissance swordsman George Silver. But were combatants of earlier periods aware of it? Are you? Some martial artists are natural fighters and do it right instinctively. I am not one of them. So to me it was a revelation when I learned of it. I hope you will find it useful, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LpsnO0E4U
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Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby johnwang on Fri May 26, 2017 10:30 am

Which one is basic and which one is advance?

1. body push arm.
2. body chase arm.

IMO, 1 is basic and 2 is advance. It's easier to go from 1 to 2. But if you start from 2 and go back to 1, it can be difficult.
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Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby everything on Fri May 26, 2017 1:07 pm

Don't understand the question.

Non-telegraphing is important in every single sport, but having no windup is not the only (or probably main) way to disguise one's intent.

This has to be one of the best moments in sports of all time, and this is in SLOW motion:
Image

He defeats at least four guys with a couple of quick moves and his "finishing" move is weak footed. And very, very non-telegraphic, incidentally.
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Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby johnwang on Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 pm

everything wrote:Don't understand the question.

Non-telegraphing is important in every single sport, but having no windup is not the only (or probably main) way to disguise one's intent.

1. Wind up -> power generation
2. Non-telegraphing -> speed generation

Wind up takes time -> slow

In the preying mantis system, you may make 1 step while execute 3 moves. The 1st move and 2nd move may be fast but no power. Since the 3rd move is coordinated with your foot, it can be more powerful.
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Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby everything on Fri May 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Thanks, I think I follow you logically (don't have this experience, unfortunately).
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Re: Coordinate your hand with your foot.

Postby chenyaolong on Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:12 pm

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:Don't understand the question.

Non-telegraphing is important in every single sport, but having no windup is not the only (or probably main) way to disguise one's intent.

1. Wind up -> power generation
2. Non-telegraphing -> speed generation

Wind up takes time -> slow

In the preying mantis system, you may make 1 step while execute 3 moves. The 1st move and 2nd move may be fast but no power. Since the 3rd move is coordinated with your foot, it can be more powerful.


In Taiji Mantis, we use set-up moves to hide the wind up. The easiest example to show this is I was to throw a hook with my back hand and completely over-commit, then it sets me up nicely for a second hook punch from my front hand. Also if I dodge my head back as I kick, it gives me a nice wind up for a downwards chop as I come forwards again. This is the meaning of the "taiji“ in Taiji Mantis - the interplay of Yin and Yang, constantly changing from one to another. For me I prefer this method than the obsession with never over-commiting and keeping centre I learnt in Wing Chun.
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