Who is right and who is wrong?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby johnwang on Fri May 19, 2017 7:06 pm

Assume A and B are training partner.

A: Please move your one leg across your another leg. When you do that, I can train my "foot sweep' on you.
B: But I'll never cross my leg in front of my opponent when I'm in his kicking range.
A: It's just an training exercise.
B: Even if it's just an training exercise, I'll not violate my principle.

A: Pleas grab my wrist with your "tiger mouse" facing to me, so I can train how to break your grip, and counter back.
B: But I'll always grab your wrist with "tiger mouth" facing toward myself. I'll never grab your wrist with "tiger mouth" facing toward you.
A: It's just an training exercise.
B: Even if it's just an training exercise, I'll not violate my principle.

Who is right, and who is wrong? Your thought?
Last edited by johnwang on Fri May 19, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby everything on Fri May 19, 2017 7:30 pm

Probably both. Some "attacks" in self-defense classes are slow motion wrist grabs, punches that stay in the air, etc. that would be unrealistic (not sure of your examples but you seem to say they fall in this category) in a fighting class, but are still possibly helpful for various reasons and a broader set of assumptions and scenarios. In a fighting class, maybe you should assume Stipe Miocic could be your opponent in a cage with refs, doctors, no weapons, etc.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby Appledog on Fri May 19, 2017 7:45 pm

johnwang wrote:Assume A and B are training partner.

A: Please move your one leg across your another leg. When you do that, I can train my "foot sweep' on you.
B: But I'll never cross my leg in front of my opponent when I'm in his kicking range.
A: It's just an training exercise.
B: Even if it's just an training exercise, I'll not violate my principle.

A: Pleas grab my wrist with your "tiger mouse" facing to me, so I can train how to break your grip, and counter back.
B: But I'll always grab your wrist with "tiger mouth" facing toward myself. I'll never grab your wrist with "tiger mouth" facing toward you.
A: It's just an training exercise.
B: Even if it's just an training exercise, I'll not violate my principle.

Who is right, and who is wrong? Your thought?


There's a response to pretty much anything. Sometimes the response to a grab is not an escape but a strike or a throw. Sometimes you make a 'bad grab' anyways expecting a certain response, which you counter. It's just a training exercise. Sure, practice the escape, when you know it move on to other escapes. Beyond that I am not sure exactly what moves you are talking about, a video clip of someone doing similar moves would help me understand exactly which moves you're talking about. There's probably an escape or counter to the moves you are talking about that you aren't aware of at the same level as you are aware of the simple escapes. So my question is what is informing your principle, is it just the knowledge you have accumulated so far, or is it more a set of rules or mechanics that your teacher told you?

Also, if you look at any good video about wristlocks (such as this Nikyo video) you will get clued-in to the idea that the escapes only work if the opponent has certain kinds of leverage. You might be surprised when someone pulls off a grab or lock on you that you thought was impossible simply because he had better structure or mechanics than you did. Are you closing yourself off to certain techniques that are valid simply because you are assuming they don't work? Why do they or don't they work? Based on the fact that there are no 100% (and no 0%) techniques, I think there is something much deeper being taught here than simple wrist grabs, escapes, and principles.
Last edited by Appledog on Fri May 19, 2017 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby johnwang on Fri May 19, 2017 8:12 pm

Appledog wrote:So my question is what is informing your principle, ...

Assume you want your opponent to train this with you and he refuses.

When you grab on your opponent's wrist with your "tiger mouth - space between thumb and index finger" facing toward your opponent, your opponent can rotate his arm to against your thumb and put his arm "inside" and "on top" of your arm. This will put you in disadvantage.

In the following clip, the guy on the left can rotate his

- right wrist clockwise and put his right hand on his opponent's left elbow joint.
- left wrist counter-clockwise and put his left hand on his opponent's right elbow joint.



In "grip fight", you want to get that "inside" and "on top" dominate position. You can verify this by using your right hand to grab on your own left wrist.

This is a wrong wrist grip.

Image

This is a correct wrist grip.

Image

If you grab on your opponent's wrist with "tiger mouth" facing toward yourself, when your opponent turns his arm to against your thumb, your arm will be "inside" and "on top" of his arm.

Last edited by johnwang on Fri May 19, 2017 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby Appledog on Fri May 19, 2017 10:56 pm

johnwang wrote:This is a correct wrist grip.
Image


What am I missing? This is just another basic shaolin/chin-na technique, known as "elbow press", from lohan 18 hands (usually one of the first forms taught in praying mantis, eagle claw, and so forth).

You hold the opponent's hand and press his elbow with your elbow, forcing him to the ground (or breaking his arm).

Last edited by Appledog on Fri May 19, 2017 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby zrm on Sat May 20, 2017 3:28 am

B is wrong.

1) You will never get a perfect setup but it is useful for beginners to know what it looks like so they can practice the mechanics and learn when to capitalize on an opponents mistake. I prefer to start the perfect setup and then gradually make it harder. Then practice how to force or encourage the opponent to make these mistakes.

2) When sparring it is sometimes good to let beginners put you in compromising positions so you can practice getting out of them. It is easier practicing these things against beginners than it is against advanced people. It also makes it less soul destroying for beginners than getting their ass kicked all the time. When sparring "for reals" against peers or the more advanced you don't want to give away anything. This is the time not to violate principles on purpose.

3) Following this kind of mentality leads to these kinds of conversations further down line:

A: Never cross your leg in front of my opponent when you are in his kicking range.
B: Why?
A: That is what my teacher always told us to do.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby Dmitri on Sat May 20, 2017 3:54 am

A is fine if this sort of training (with unlikely or easy-to-escape setups) takes a very small portion of the overall training. Nothing wrong, in principle, with opening up your game and exploring possibilities. Just because B "would never do" some move for whatever reasons, however valid they may appear, doesn't mean C, D, etc. won't do that move.
But yes, IMO the vast majority of training should focus on the more realistic and generally less-cooperative, or non-cooperative, scenarios.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby Giles on Sat May 20, 2017 3:57 am

Agree: B is more wrong than right.

A: Please attack me with punches, first slow single punches then multiple punches, and also getting faster, and then do the same with kicks.
B: No. In a real fight I'll draw my gun and shoot you in the head.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby Steve James on Sat May 20, 2017 4:42 am

A: It's just an training exercise.
B: Even if it's just an training exercise, I'll not violate my principle.


Both are wrong. They're supposed to be partners, not opponents. Ime, you tell your partner to really try to punch you in the face, just without the intention to hurt you. That's the only way. When people practice missing, they miss in practice. The person who wants to practice sweeps can ask his partner for the opportunity, or can ask his partner not to give it to him the chance.

I'm not sure you're asking about proper sweeping or grabbing techniques, John.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby johnwang on Sat May 20, 2017 9:42 am

Here is another example. In SC, you won't apply "head lock" if you don't have a fully control on your opponent's leading arm.

Image

Most of the "head lock" counters depend on your leading arm is free. This issue comes from the SC jacket wrestling, or wrestling style that doesn't have "leading arm control" concept. In some wrestling, instead of wrapping on your opponent's leading arm, you just grab on his short sleeve, or use both of your arms to lock on his head. When you do that, your opponent's leading arm is free and can do all kind of counters on you.

Image

Image

Here is the concern:

A: I want you to apply a head lock on me. But I don't want you to control my leading arm so I can still use my leading arm to counter you.
B: But if I don't have your leading arm control, I won't apply my head lock.
A: It's just an training exercise.
B: Even if it's just an training exercise, I'll not violate my principle.

My questions is,

- Are those "head lock" counter truly exist?
- Are those head lock counters only work on those who don't understand the nature of head lock?

In other words, you spend your valuable training time to develop some skills. Later on you then find out that you may never have chance to apply it on an experienced wrestler? Are those training time pretty much just wasted?

Your thought?
Last edited by johnwang on Sat May 20, 2017 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby Steve James on Sat May 20, 2017 9:58 am

In other words, you spend your valuable training time to develop some skills. Later on you then find out that you may never have chance to apply it on an experienced wrestler? Are those training time pretty much just wasted?


Naw, It kept you healthy and made it fun to take care of inexperienced wrestlers. Did I say it kept you healthy? Besides, most martial artists will practice martial skills that will only be used in practice. Only a few actually need to use those skills on a regular basis. The rest use them because they choose to fight or compete voluntarily.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby everything on Sat May 20, 2017 3:03 pm

In any area in which you get to learn skills or perhaps compete, you are very lucky if your training partners and opponents are high or even elite level. Obviously (or maybe not), it's very difficult to get that lucky, or to put yourself in position where you are maybe high enough level to get that lucky. Some people don't realize they're at the opposite extreme, clearly. Maybe it's hard to know because you have to experience the gigantic qualitative difference somehow. This is probably one reason D1 wrestling produces some or more of the top mma competitors. Those athletes have climbed many real levels and know they have.
Last edited by everything on Sat May 20, 2017 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby Finny on Sat May 20, 2017 6:03 pm

johnwang wrote:
A: It's just an training exercise.
B: Even if it's just an training exercise, I'll not violate my principle.

A: It's just an training exercise.
B: Even if it's just an training exercise, I'll not violate my principle.



If B won't "violate my principle", they are not training - and B never will. If your 'principle' requires you to only act as you would in a fight, then you can by definition never train.. you can only fight.

It is my understanding that in training to fight, we commonly violate fighting 'principles' in order to allow.. well.. training to take place.

Then the amount (if any) of actual fighting done as a component of training helps incorporate trained teachings. Simple.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby .Q. on Sun May 21, 2017 12:07 am

Whoever has the turn training should be able to dictate the condition because it's their turn. You can point out the problem with their assumptions and make a suggestion, but if that's what they want to do, just go along with it since it's 'their turn' anyway. When it's your turn, you can tell your partner to do what you want them to do. That way everyone gets to do what they want to do. I don't agree with the concept that everyone must do the same thing.
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Re: Who is right and who is wrong?

Postby johnwang on Mon May 22, 2017 3:04 pm

A: I teach you MA for health and not for fighting,
B: I came here to learn fighting from you and not for health.

Who is right and who is wrong? Should both A and B make that clear before the first lesson even start?
Last edited by johnwang on Mon May 22, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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