Jon Jones thumb down wrist grab to preempt uppercut

[everything]

Lots of interesting points and gifs in this article, but the thumb down wrist grab that johnwang was talking about in another thread (I forgot which one) is one of the featured points - a preemptive defense against Cormier's uppercuts.

Edit: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spo ... 779bb55841 has the interesting points.

This one has the uppercut bit:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/1/7/750 ... -elbow-gif

Jones has to be in the discussion as the GOAT. Statistically, he is: http://blog.datadive.net/who-are-the-be ... ian-study/
If there were a Jones style, in 500 years, people would talk about the "complete system" blah blah blah, some of the JKD theory he studied, etc., but no one could do what he does.

Some of the article is about Jones' camp bringing back long forgotten techniques (in this case from boxing?), which we were talking about somewhat on the jujutsu thread.

[GrahamB]

That Bloody Elbow article about old school boxing was great, thanks.

[marvin8]

This one has the uppercut bit:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/1/7/750 ... -elbow-gif

Jones has to be in the discussion as the GOAT. Statistically, he is: http://blog.datadive.net/who-are-the-be ... ian-study/
If there were a Jones style, in 500 years, people would talk about the "complete system" blah blah blah, some of the JKD theory he studied, etc., but no one could do what he does.

Some of the article is about Jones' camp bringing back long forgotten techniques (in this case from boxing?), which we were talking about somewhat on the jujutsu thread.

Here's a video breakdown of that Jones and Cormier fight posted by GrahmaB:

Sticking like that can be very useful for negating a grappler that wants to clinch. If you watch this breakdown of Jon Jones vs Cormier you can see Jones using very similar hand fighting to that displayed in the Tai Chi clips to negate Cormier - see around 2.50 mark. Combined with striking, obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhWfSj5_CuQ

It would be interesting to watch Jones' fights and see how he neutralizes incoming force, leads, stick, follows, bridges, etc. Then, compare that with CMA fighters in combat competitions to see who uses more CMA princples in their fighting.

[everything]

Yeah definitely interesting. He's probably a genius who seems to be able to read a JKD theory (for example), or in-fight adjust to uppercuts, and almost instantly know what to do and be able to do it. To take a top 1% guy and then see where other CMA (or MMA or XYZ) people aren't doing the same thing is interesting. Of course it's not really fair, even if it's instructive.

On a side note, sometimes there seems to be this related fallacy in CMA discussions. If Wang Xiangzhai was great, I can study what he did and be great. If Jones is great, I can study MMA and be great. If Mozart was great, I can study what he studied and be great. It just isn't true (or at least sufficient), but often there seems to be this erroneous assumption in all our BTDT-type debates.

What could be more interesting (theoretically) is if Jones studied IMA and to see how he incorporated it. Much of it is invisible, felt in the body, or sticking that he would feel in a fraction of a second, but we might not see and Bloody Elbow couldn't break down either. But would still be theoretically interesting.

[marvin8]

On a side note, sometimes there seems to be this related fallacy in CMA discussions. If Wang Xiangzhai was great, I can study what he did and be great. If Jones is great, I can study MMA and be great. If Mozart was great, I can study what he studied and be great. It just isn't true (or at least sufficient), but often there seems to be this erroneous assumption in all our BTDT-type debates.

By studying Jones and other great fighters you can at least improve if you have the motivation to do so. Trainers and fighters have been using film study for years. Now, it is easier than ever before with the advent of the computer, youtube, the UFC venue, and analysts able to make a living.

What could be more interesting (theoretically) is if Jones studied IMA and to see how he incorporated it. Much of it is invisible, felt in the body, or sticking that he would feel in a fraction of a second, but we might not see and Bloody Elbow couldn't break down either. But would still be theoretically interesting.

Do you have any video of anyone one having this type of effect on a resisting opponent? There's plenty of push hands competitions, tai chi full contact, etc., to choose from.

[everything]

Agree. Everyone in every sport or art should study the greats.

Not sure what kind of videos you are seeking. Are you looking for a video where someone sticks, adheres, follows, borrows, etc? Many times throwing experts go one way then the opponent comes back and they go the other. e.g,. Fedor:



Or Bonnar is pushing into Jones so Jones "borrows" some force and throws the other way


These follow when push, pull, etc., and incorporate listening.

[everything]

Here's an interesting Machida gif where his parry is almost guiding and following the opponent's punch toward him, then pushing it downward.

[johnwang]

This clip shows how easy it is to take your opponent down by just a simple foot sweep.

[wayne hansen]

Yeah definitely interesting. He's probably a genius who seems to be able to read a JKD theory (for example), or in-fight adjust to uppercuts, and almost instantly know what to do and be able to do it. To take a top 1% guy and then see where other CMA (or MMA or XYZ) people aren't doing the same thing is interesting. Of course it's not really fair, even if it's instructive.

On a side note, sometimes there seems to be this related fallacy in CMA discussions. If Wang Xiangzhai was great, I can study what he did and be great. If Jones is great, I can study MMA and be great. If Mozart was great, I can study what he studied and be great. It just isn't true (or at least sufficient), but often there seems to be this erroneous assumption in all our BTDT-type debates.

What could be more interesting (theoretically) is if Jones studied IMA and to see how he incorporated it. Much of it is invisible, felt in the body, or sticking that he would feel in a fraction of a second, but we might not see and Bloody Elbow couldn't break down either. But would still be theoretically interesting.

Yes some are just born with it especially good street fighters
This is why those of us who aren't train

[marvin8]

Not sure what kind of videos you are seeking. Are you looking for a video where someone sticks, adheres, follows, borrows, etc? Many times throwing experts go one way then the opponent comes back and they go the other. e.g,. Fedor:



Or Bonnar is pushing into Jones so Jones "borrows" some force and throws the other way


These follow when push, pull, etc., and incorporate listening.

I meant more, it would be interesting to have fights analyzed, as Bloody Elbow does, but speak in terms of CMA techniques or strategies. As in your videos, Fedor using An then Lu, change of direction, Machida simultaneous parry and punch (defend and attack), Jones causing tension in opponent, then changes direction and sweeps. It's kind of a joke and little jab. Some might think it's not accurate or silly.

Some people complain that others are posting "kickboxing" or MMA videos. However ironically, when you look at CMA competitions they seem to do less of the CMA strategies and more "kickboxing." Energy or force is in every fight whether internal or external or in a ring or out in the street.

What could be more interesting (theoretically) is if Jones studied IMA and to see how he incorporated it. Much of it is invisible, felt in the body, or sticking that he would feel in a fraction of a second, but we might not see and Bloody Elbow couldn't break down either. But would still be theoretically interesting.

If Jones studied IMA, what "interesting" IMA effects would you yourself expect Jones to have on an opponent. For example, would you expect Jones to "stick" to an opponent and control him, at the point of contact? Or use peng to ward off?

Do you have a video of an IMA player displaying different IMA skills in competition, against a resistant opponent?

[everything]

I think people have been pointing to Nick Ospiczak and GrahamB did an analysis of taichi principles. If we think literally about descriptions of taichi being 8 energies and 5 steppings, it is easy to see the 8 energies everywhere as well as back and forth wave like movement. We already see fighters "lead into emptiness" all the time. Jones already sticks and controls. Perhaps he'd be even smoother. Perhaps he'd have that "off balance at every contact" effect and be even more legendary. That's hard to imagine and we'll never know.

[C.J.W.]

Here's an interesting Machida gif where his parry is almost guiding and following the opponent's punch toward him, then pushing it downward.

Very interesting indeed! Looks like a textbook version of parry and punch universally found in Asian martial arts.

[everything]

Have you ever watched Fedor's fights?

Many of his first touches result in off-balancing (at least loss of central equilibrium or an unintended weight shift or stepping that he then deliberately exploits), often by strikes, but of course his throws and takedowns are great. Did he develop "internal power" deliberately? I don't think so, but I don't think I've seen anyone else do that. He has power, internal or otherwise. Again a musician who studies classical or a random dude who studies IMA cannot become Mozart or Fedor, so if we are looking for genius based on what people studied, that isn't really the thing to do. That doesn't take away from classical or IMA or MMA as art forms we should appreciate. Hypothetically, how great would he be if he also had added IMA? We'll never know.

Edit: I think Machida does this as well but he doesn't have that swing for the fences style. His off-balancing strikes do seem to be deliberate setups, whereas any one of Fedor's strikes could do that or they could be the KO blow (or he is open for some occasional upsets at the end of his career).

[everything]

Here's an interesting Machida gif where his parry is almost guiding and following the opponent's punch toward him, then pushing it downward.

Very interesting indeed! Looks like a textbook version of parry and punch universally found in Asian martial arts.

Except for the "hardness" and he is of course a karate guy, there are lots of "taiji" type attributes in Machida's style. He likes to "lead into emptiness". He has that karate throw that reminds me of diagonal flying and part horse's mane. He wants to take a back and forth counterattack approach (rather than say a xingyiquan linear approach).