discovering mma-taiji part 2

[C.J.W.]

CMC may or may not have been a fighter but plenty who followed him were

Very true. IMO, some of his students and grandstudents have already surpassed him in both PH and fighting skills.

[Niall Keane]

The teachers they trained under were Gan Xiaozhou and Wu Guozhong, both were well-known disciples of CMC here in Taiwan. Never met them in person, so I can't really tell you how they were in terms of skill levels.

But I will say this though: CMC was never known as a fighter, and there were many who questioned his fighting skills. However, due to his close ties with Chiang Kaishek, being Mrs. Chiang's art teacher, no one dared to challenge him or make him lose face.

Oh yeah, Wang Zihe and ZMQ were friends, more or less, till they got into an argument about real descipleship in the Yang family. Wang put Zheng into the water gully! And Xiong only used one palm to silence Zheng.
In many schools and lineages here in TW ZMQ does not have any good reputation, quite contrary!

yea, same as I've heard from many sources, its evident with his bent back leg, vertical to the ground back etc. though that he had no idea about power, and the "lazy" form omits much detail form the original yang form, essential detailed advice from old masters on position, guard and recovery / counter skills.

From what I heard, he wasn't an actual inside the door disciple of Yang Cheng fu either, despite his work on Yang's written material.
I understand that he also learnt from Chang Ching-ling a student of Yang Ban-hou. And although this has been presented as a possible reason why CMC was so different in approach and syllabus to YCF, I think myself that CMC focused on presenting to the world Tai Chi Lite, that suited his students.
CMC never had spear or Dao or cane forms like some of his students now do, the cane came from the Nanjing Military Academy.

He did teach (as mentioned above) calligraphy to Soong Mei-ling, wife of Chiang Kai-shek the president of Taiwan, and as for Robert W. Smith, well he was wrong about William Chen being a full-contact champion, he took part in that 1957 comp but lost his bout. (On the 22nd January in 1957, the Chinese National Boxing Association organised the first "Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau Guoshu Competition" at Sanjun Stadium in Taipei.) Its also well known that he trained in western boxing. (I don't think Chen ever made such claims about himself, he seems a sound and honest lad, but his kids have done far more, and are worthy of greater respect!) Smith, to me, is an example of a lad who drank the koolaid when it comes to woowoo, making something larger than life about his experiences with often times word-of-mouth paper-tigers, buying into the unproven tales and hype, well it sold books and made him an "authority", for sure he was a western pioneer, but he seems a big fan of poetic license. and the thing is, the "Western" fascination with CMC style really finds root with Smith.

My own Sigung received a gift from CMC after his success at defeating Head Coach for the Taiwanese joint forces (air, sea and land) and three times Wushu Champion Yu Wen Tung. Cheng Tin-hung retired from the competition after that bout and remained the single victory of the entire HK team. (The team consisted of Wing Chun "King of Sparring" Wong Shun Leung, Wu Style lineage holder Cheng Tin Hung, Northern Shaolin [ ] Gap Soo, Dao Style Yuen Cheung, Rougong Style Liu Tze Keung, Tai Chi's Woo Shing, White Crane's Chan Tze Yuen, Choy Li Fatt's Chan Wu Leung and Lai Hung, Mantis Tseng Jun Hwa, and others.)
Cheng Tin hung and Cheng Man Ching pushed hands in a friendly manner subsequently, (I guess they got talking). CTH considered that CMC was "highly cultured and that his Tai Chi was very soft, but that he was not a fighter".

My own experience with Cheng Man Ching style in Europe has been of pathetic cheaters who despite altering competition rules ridiculously to where all tactics bar "push" are barred in tuishou competition they still fail miserably. The first TCFE Europeans were marred by their insistence on such rulesets, (announced on the day as changes, as they otherwise threatened as hosts to cancel the competition). SO badly did they fair in the second comp in Denmark 2002 that subsequently they invented their own "special olympics" Cheng Man Ching Style European Competition.
Gripping and locks were a big no no for them, Why? Well in "their" tai chi chuan(ercise) they do not exist, in fact nothing does bar a very crude Li-based Ji.

Some of them were sound lads, the one's who's reputation as martial arts "masters" wasn't on the line, being finally transparently demonstrated via their students' disastrous performances and shown to be purely fabricated and based upon fictions. None of the sound lads were under any delusion as to their lack of fighting ability. They were humble enough to ask for guidance of some of us who were successful.

So, we have William Chen who had a boxing base too, and has gone on to produce decent fighters... and from my understanding the CMC lad successful at similarly producing fighters on Taiwan had a link to Banhou and came from an external background too?

It's not so surprising then, how particularly on Western boards, and more so on forums full of U.S. practitioners that the fallacy that Tai Chi Chuan is merely forms, chi gung and basic tuishou and so requires either an external art base or cross training in a "more effective style" is a common point of discussion? The premise is completely wrong... but Smith said it was the shit, so its got to be? right?

[wayne hansen]

I have teachers from both CMC and CTH Lineages both have value both good fighters

[johnwang]

no one dared to challenge him or make him lose face.

That's not true. The Zimen master Xiong Jian-Shun did. One day Xiong was sick. Xiong's friend brought CMC to see Xiong. CMC suggested Xiong should train Taiji for health. That made Xiong mad big time.

Interesting. Did they ever fight?

My Zimen brothers (I was once an indoor Zimen student) told me that Xiong Jian-Shun sent CMC through the window.

IMO, The "fighting intention" is missing in CMC's Taiji form.

[wayne hansen]

As soon as I hear he went through the window it sounds like a story

[johnwang]

As soon as I hear he went through the window it sounds like a story

I just repeat what I have heard without changing even one word. Those Zimen guys loved to talk about this when I was there.

[windwalker]

As soon as I hear he went through the window it sounds like a story

I just repeat what I have heard without changing even one word.

If it went against what you seem to think would you still repeat it?

[johnwang]

One time I told someone that I saw GM Chang Tung-Sheng used XingYi Heng Chuan to knock a challenger's body 45 degree up into the air (of course he didn't fly away), that person didn't believe me. I saw the whole thing by my own eyes. It was in the Taiwan Culture University out door field and I was GM Chang's teaching assistant that day. The time was the summer of 1980.

C.J.W was interested in the detail of that event. Since it's already history, that event deserve to be known to the public.

During the summer of 1980, I was in Taiwan that summer. GM Chang Tung Sheng was teaching both Shuai Chiao and Taiji in the Culture University on top of the Yang-Min mountain. I was his banker who took care of his Taxi fair and lunch expense for both him and his young girlfriend (Who said training TCMA is cheap ). I was also his throwing dummy for his both classes (there were throw in his Taiji class too). But I prefer to call myself as his "teaching assistant". One day we were teaching Shuai Chiao to his students on the outdoor field. One guy (not sure he was a university student or not) walked toward him and asked if he could show GM Chang his MA skill. GM Chang said OK.

- That guy used a right floor sweep at GM Change's leading leg. GM Chang picked up his leg to let that sweep to pass underneath.
- He continued his body spinning (counter-clockwise - top view) and changed his floor sweep into a tornado kick at GM Chang's head (he must fool people by his floor sweep, tornado kick combo before).
- While his body was about 2 - 3 feet high in the air, GM Chang moved in and used his left XingYi Heng Chuan to knock on that guy's waist (GM Chang might add in Taiji diagonal fly, or SC shoulder strike body method into it too). That made that guy's body to fly 45 degree upward for another 2 feet before dropping.

That was the 1st time I had seen XingYi Heng Chuan in action with such powerful effect. Of course, the guy was jumping and GM Chang caught that good timing, borrowed that guy's upward jumping force and executed a correct technique.

[cloudz]

What qualifies his work as that of being internal. What would differentiate it from any other type
of work in the same medium.

Hi David,

Nick trains in internal arts (nei gong) and this is integrated into him and his martial arts.
That's what neijia is all said and done.

I think that's a pretty significant difference to what the majority if not all training in that medium is generally like.
May the Dao be with you my friend.