Belt System for Tai Chi

[wayne hansen]

Most systems that have ranking systems have simple forms that build in complexity.
Most people who want rank tai chi don't have a full curriculum
Most revolve around the long form that grows in understanding not complexity
How do you judge the daily understanding gained in training
Tai chi,s most complex move is right at the start GST
Higher levels are simpler San shou for instance
More direct smaller moves more combat oriented
Tai chi comes in 5 levels
Fist
Pole
Spear
Knife
Sword
Each teaching a different energy and each weapon effecting how you practice the fist
Yet most people go from fist to sword
Kindergarten to PHD
And end up having a PHD with a kindergarten understanding
When you have forms from 3 different systems which is first and why
If you have parts of 3 different systems how does that make a whole
Having the same words in 3 different languages does not make you fluent in any
Have a belt ranking within your own school it is neither here nor there but there is no way it can travel over a whole art
I was talking to a guy yesterday who is doing a ten week course in the 24 step
He said the teacher was a grandmaster,I know the teacher he went to his first lesson with two people I know
It was at least 10 years after I started training yet he claims more years in the art than I do
He travels 600 klms to train with a student of a student of a student of mine
Yet he is a grandmaster
Belt or no belt it has nothing to do with the real art
It is a commercial descission give them a silk uniform and a fan at the same time

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[everything]

Belts work pretty well for kids' martial arts programs. Everyone likes to advance and get "good grades". They arguably work well in some sport-oriented arts, especially if there is an international standard. For an art that 99.999% of the time has no known "martial" aspect, or something internal like qigong that is felt by the practitioner, not sure what the purpose would be. Saying I am pickleball champion of my town is meaningless. (this isn't true btw)

[wayne hansen]

You presume a lot apple dog the most wrong is that you could join my class
No glass ceiling here
I learn from anyone who has something to teach
But they must have something
I have known many judges of forms that means only that you are good at politics nothing more
Yes you are right it is about simplicity
I have no need to pass anything on
I have been teaching since the 70's if I haven't passed it on by now it is too late
It would be interesting to see you do something is there any film out there

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[wayne hansen]

I am not talking about levels I am talking about the order of learning
Not needing students I only take people by introduction
I would see your beligerence on first meeting
You still haven't said where I can see film of you

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[charles]

The problem is there's basically one or two long forms and then everything else is essentially internal skills development.

I'm not really clear on what problem you are trying to address by introducing a grading system.

In what I've learned, there is much more than "one or two long forms": a bunch of empty hand forms, a bunch of solo exercises, a bunch of two person exercises, long weapons, short weapons, bang, ruler, sphere... While one can reward students for successfully completing the learning of a new sequence of choreography - with or without some apparatus - that doesn't seem to be particularly meaningful. Sure, one can keep a student from learning the next thing until he or she has gained sufficient skill with the last things, but it isn't clear to me what is accomplished by doing that. One of the things that I have seen is that many students want to be continually taught something (i.e. choreography) that is new, without having obtained any real insight or skill into what they have already learned. It ends up being "forms collection". I'm not sure what is gained by reinforcing that behaviour with a belt/grading system.

I understand your point about the glass ceiling and it is a valid one. However, my experience has been that any student sufficiently serious will simply study with other teachers, either concurrently and quietly, or change teachers going through a succession of teachers in pursuit of knowledge and skill. Those that don't are probably in it for other reasons and the glass ceiling is largely of their own choice.

I didn't realize that Donna was particularly well-known outside of a small circle. I don't really understand the point of your bringing her/Andy up. If one is "serious", one should always study with people as close to "the source" as possible: that usually means, eventually, studying with one's teacher's teachers, or at least one's teacher's peers if the teacher's teacher isn't still alive. I thought that was a given. I watched Liu Chengde toss Andy around like he (Andy) was a rag doll. It's pretty clear who of the two I'd want to study with: the more senior, closer to the source (i.e. Hong/Chen Fake).

Last, I agree that a lot of the material I've learned isn't really necessary and can be paired down to just the essentials. But, its not clear to me what that would have to do with introducing a belt or ranking system. It would seem to be going in the opposite direction, that of having less basis for distinguishing overt different ranks.

[everything]

The reason this topic is so hard to discuss is no one agrees on what taijiquan is, let alone what is difficult or not difficult. Emulating a successful belt system could otherwise be easy. Many arts followed Kano's example already to some amount of success.

Since taijiquan itself is already organized around 8 energies, that could be an interesting way to organize progression. For example, at first, for 8 lower ranks, one tries to understand each energy and an application under no pressure. Teach all the applications known from the forms (people don't even agree on various applications; just look at the fist under elbow thread here). For the most part, that should be very easy, though. Include some push hands at intermediate level and make sure 8 energies are being used and combined. Add free sparring in different formats, preferably with experts from multiple styles. No black belt level until you are good at standup sparring with throws/strikes. Of course if a school or style/art can produce that, there isn't really any need for belts. Boxing and wrestling don't have a belt system, for example, but have many people competent at standup and ground sparring.

[Bao]

To be fair, one advantage with a ranking system is that it could be a tool to teach beginners and potential students about the art, about the stages of personal development in the art. They will have a very clear idea of a step by step process and the teacher will be able to break their down teaching in parts that the student have accepted in forehand, often even before starting to practice Tai Chi. I don't think that ranks or belts are necessary, but what can be frustrating for many students in Tai chi and other Chinese arts is that progress can be hard to measure and it can be hard to know what kind of progress the teacher expects of them. At least, a student needs to know what he can expect from the art by practicing diligent over the years to come.

[Steve James]

At least, a student needs to know what he can expect from the art by practicing diligent over the years to come.

That all depends on the rate of promotion. If promotion is based on skill, then the less skillful may be disappointed by their progress. If there's no competition, then promotion will be based either on time spent or knowledge. However, that would make promotion automatic. Someone who's taken more classes will be at a higher rank, but how high can he go? In many martial arts, higher belt ranks indicate the ability to teach at some level. So, often, students get their high rankings and then start their own schools.

That's fine, btw. My point is that a belt system can be equally disappointing for a long term student. Usually, the people who will stick around for years and years didn't need a belt. Yet, I think there is a relatively clear hierarchy in every school. Most know who's been there the longest, and who has the best skill. The two don't necessarily go together, but everyone knows.

[johnwang]

If Taiji is a wrestling art then let's compare Taiji with Shuai-Chiao. What does SC include?

1. 30 defense and counter principles such as:

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing

蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking

分(Fen) - Separate hands
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking

圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
抹(Mo) - Wiping
偏(Pian) – Head circling
夾(Jia) – Clamping head

摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
摀(Wu) – Face covering
速(Su) – Forehead push
墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
撈 (Lao) – Leg seize

環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
撒(Sa) - Casting
飄(Piao) - Floating hand

2. 30 categories of throwing skill such as:

踢(Ti) - Forward kick,
撮(Cuo) - Scooping kick,
粘(Zhan) - Sticking kick,
撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting,
靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze,

彈(Tan) - Spring,
挑(Tiao) - Hooking kick,
纏(Chan) - Foot entangling,
合(He) - Inner hook,
掏(Tao) - Inner knee seizing,

穿(Chuan) - Fireman’s carry,
撿(Jian) - Foot picking,
沖(Chong) - Inner kick,
掛(Gua) - Inner heel sweep,
刀(Dao) - Inner sickle,

蹩(Bie) - Break,
撩(Liao) - Back kick,
扣(Kou) - Knee seizing,
切(Qie) - Front cut,
削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking,

擰(Ning) - Wheeling,
撳(Qin) - Pressing,
摟(Lou) - Spine lock,
搵(Wen) – Lifting,
揣(Chuai) – Overhead,

勾(Gou) - Back sickle,
抱(Bao) - Back raising,
轟(Hong) - Shoving,
裏(Li) - Back inner hook,
擓(Kuai) - Leg bending lift,

Each category of throw may contain from 2 to 35 different throws. It comes up to over 200 throws. There are so much information to cover. Without a proper designed program, how will any new student be able to know:

- Where he is at?
- What information that he has learned?
- What information that he hasn't learned?

Can any Taiji teacher be able to come up a list that's similar to what SC system has?

[Steve James]

Can any Taiji teacher be able to come up a list that's similar to what SC system has?

Imo, the ideal curriculum would include the shuai jiao list, but do the moves using "tcc" principles. A bigger difference might be the use of exercises like "belt cracking." But, that doesn't mean that they'd need belts.

[Steve James]

GM Chang's tcc doesn't use belts, does it?

[johnwang]

GM Chang's tcc doesn't use belts, does it?

No belt system for the Chang style Taiji.