Belt System for Tai Chi

[edededed]

This thread generally demonstrates how CMA enthusiasts react to belt systems in CMA. (Mostly, it feels unauthentic and/or like marketing.)

[taiwandeutscher]

When the TW Taijiquan Association was looking to schools for youngsters, they were told to come up with a grading system
They came up with 7 student grades (ji 級) and 10 master grades (duan 段). They also differenciated between martial (Wu) and civil (wen) grades in the duan area.
After around 20 yrs., nobody really ever cared, some assoc. people do grading tests for money, it has been an utter failure.

[Niall Keane]

The only belts deservng of respect are championship belts... the rest are just so much "personal interpretation" or downright corruption. Some like to live in heirarchial systems, and i guess there has to be some point if there's fuck all fighting.

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[RobP3]

Over time, it is likely that any belt system will fail to be promulgated and will die due to lack of interest.

So once again....why? Or are you just a trollin'?

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[Peacedog]

If you go to Gary Clyman's website and look around he has the skills listed for obtaining a given sash in his system.

Practical elements like having a recorded fight for certain rankings are included.

It might give you an idea of how to structure your program.

[Trick]

Over time, it is likely that any belt system will fail to be promulgated and will die due to lack of interest.

So once again....why? Or are you just a trollin'?

No I already explained why on this thread, last page. Here's a quick summary of page 2.

The point is to grade and organize what I know and how I teach it.
This is about how to teach professionally.
To help students:
a) ...tell the difference between (you--quality instructor) and joe blow schmoe.
b) ...explain things to the student in a simple and straightforward fashion.
c) ...how to teach to the level of the student / keeping track of the level of each student.
Creating a ratings system to track performance in sparring (to provide opponents of similar skill)
reduce the amount of daoyin/qigong/jibengong "stuff" that "needs" to be taught to a standard minimum. or perhaps a small collection of options.

On page 1 I also mentioned that a belt system helps ensure quality by preventing people who don't know so much from following through the system. Belt inflation would be controlled by anchoring the upper levels to a ranking system. Alternately the belt system could be used merely as a roadmap for forms and applications knowledge and a separate rating system could be used. I also mentioned both anecdotal and scientific experience from my long teaching career that shows students learn faster if they are given well-defined goals and a pleasant, open teaching environment.

I think in the end I have a good chance of creating something useful, at least within my own school. Which is what this is really all about. When I made the original post asking for constructive criticism, I got a lot of criticism which wasn't constructive, and a lot of people who really didn't read the thread or understand what I posted in the first place. I think that is ironic because it reflects the way in which the "Traditional" Tai Chi world tends to operate, especially with the current state of affairs where everyone has the 'real form' and a set of secret chi kung exercises. A world where people argue about the angle of the back foot in single whip. Frankly I don't have time for those kinds of issue, there are too many positive things to focus on here versus negative. I may fail, but I will try.

I was especially interested in Doc Fai Wong's ranking system. He seems to have gone in the opposite direction I was thinking, but I am guessing his system is working, at least in his own schools. It would be interesting to talk with some of the students who have gone through his system.

Yes it seems most people involved in TJQ are not interested in a belt system, and i'm sure you already knew this before you brought it up here, cause you seem not very confident in your Idea,as the above quote that Phil highlights tell. You have many years of TJQ practise experience, why come up with this Idea now? I myself do not theach so i don't know but i don't think there is a TJQ belt/grading system in demand among potential and current TJQ students, at least not among serious students, or maybe there is?

[Niall Keane]

On page 1 I also mentioned that a belt system helps ensure quality by preventing people who don't know so much from following through the system. Belt inflation would be controlled by anchoring the upper levels to a ranking system. Alternately the belt system could be used merely as a roadmap for forms and applications knowledge and a separate rating system could be used. I also mentioned both anecdotal and scientific experience from my long teaching career that shows students learn faster if they are given well-defined goals and a pleasant, open teaching environment.

This doesn't ever reflect reality.

When I've seen belt systems I see hierarchical control that eventually fails as the lads ranked 2,3,4,5 etc. all get out from under the rock and start their own organizations. And if 9th Duan is the highest in yours, suddenly there will be a 10th in theirs. People try all sorts of ridiculous stuff to try and deal with this.... introducing martial v health v combat sport belts so the 7th duan who never fought wont feel upset that his junior by time training who has been a champ gets a 7th under combat sport only. and that lad who has fought wont just leave due to some inexperienced form-dancer arsehole lording over him every time he can.

Is this not a perfect picture?

Look at the IWUF system?

Those with 5-6th duans are bureaucrats where Muslim Salihov (arguably the best sanda fighter of all time - he certainly won more worlds and snada wangs and sanda cups than anyone else - well he's a 3rd Duan. How does a pencil pusher who knows the sign language of refereeing sanda seriously think they deserve a higher belt than such an accomplished fighter? It makes a mockery of the whole concept! and thus no one bar the bureaucrats and un-tested Chinese "masters" give a flying fuck about it.

You've a black belt? good man, mine has a buckle, I find it much more efficient than tying and untying every time I go for a dump!


But look pal, you seem ok about teaching a "complete system" of forms, without having been trained to fight BY THE SYSTEM OF TAI CHI CHUAN. you state you know how to get from zero to hero but how? Are you going to make-up the stuff you weren't taught or just "borrow" from other styles? Form follows function after all? the applications came first!

Like, fighting isn't an "intellectual exercise", its not about guessing how form works, or "seeing how it might", its serious, and people can get hurt - badly - with false impressions of their capability. But that has never stopped a snake-oil salesman!

And more so there are drills designed and evolved through generations of fighters that condition how we approach combat. If Tai Chi hasn't been used to programme your kicks punches and throws then it isn't your delivery system and it cannot in fairness be declared Tai Chi Chuan. And practicing a form even 100 times a day is not enough. The science behind combat sports is quite developed and we know that thousands of reps and repeated revision is required.

And worse... form is a catalogue of "suggestions", mini classes by past masters captured in an aesthetically minded martial dance, that considers flow, counter and recovery and the arsenal of technique available with in the style. It cuts out all the practical and sloppy looking footwork and feints / draws, fucking with rhythms, recovering from fuck-ups and much, much more that are essential for prac tical application and for a fighter to understand and more so condition to be able to pull off under pressure.

It just cannot be done - developing a fighter from forms and basic tuishou alone. It would be like trying to develop a competent boxer from the heavy bag and a skipping rope. Probably worse actually as at least hitting the bag might result in a lucky punch. Such boxercise approaches might work against the cripples, but its going to fall apart under any real pressure, trained or untrained, when the unlike in Hollywood, the Action figure in your head doesn't always have an answer and ultimately get his way, and isn't indestructible.

Grade all you like, order belts made of lama hair or silk from China's museums... its meaningless. not to say it mightn't be a successful business model, it is in many areas already... each belt equals a new syllabus of further bullshit for the next one and a costly grading, and a "sign off" on all the stuff learned and never touched again. and like you said everyone knows how much of the fantasy figure collection they have acquired. And lots of people like that bullshit... fantasy is a major genre of the entertainment industry.

As my coach once remarked, "people like the IDEA of being martial artists, it gives them something to chat about at parties",
but those types (the 99.99%) are not interested in subjecting themselves to the process of becoming one.

Don't uses shoes on mats btw... although if there wont be hours of wrestling and sparring on them with people driving and twisting their limbs and opponents into them, who knows? tai chi slippers could be fine.

Don't forget to offer a "reduced price "online tutorials to class members, and if anyone asks about evidence of martial ability, just do what all the other tai chi boxercise boys do, point to the likes of myself or my Sifu as proof of how it works and in the same breath don't forget to mention that we are only low level "external" chaps, that you have "the real", and that "it" can only be acquired through years of gentle chi gung and form that won't cause any physical strain, (after all its jin not li) and only tax their wallet.

Best of all, as we are dealing with invisible, immeasurable jedi skill magic, any failure of all the students to fight their way out of a paper bag can be blamed on the students themselves and those minor mistakes in their little finger positions? Make up stories about how such and such got their orange belt, third stripe after only 3 tries.. and hey... you will be THE Dragonhead!

[Trick]

Sorry , 'Rob' it should be, not Phil

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[Niall Keane]

Appledog wrote:
What I got is just a complete system, basically, as complete as it gets minus "all" the martial applications....... I see a really clear path from beginner to fighter in Tai Chi, and thats what I want to share.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 984b00962b


As for my lineage and right to speak so to say: (probably enough of tai chi's big names in there? looks like a long list of best fighters, not idiot grandsons.

http://sanshou.webs.com/lineage.htm

coaching ability:

http://sanshou.webs.com/results.htm



Dan Docherty, founder and at times president of Tai Chi Federation for Europe, and The Tai Chi Union UK... 1980 SE Asian Champ, top student of "the tai chi body guard " Cheng Tin hung,himself one time gate keeper of WU style according to Eddie Wu... probably the most accomplished tai chi master of the late twentieth century turning out champs for decades ... yea.. "no-name black holes"... compared with?

I present evidence, I'd appreciate the same?

The 9 levels are certs to coaching ability, a stamp of quality and require actual fight experience, they are not belts handed out to children to keep the parents happy. There is no "course" to semesterise the transmission of knowledge and skill, the coach will have learned and relearned and evolved their understanding many times before I deem them capable of teaching such. Coaching Certs are not so uncommon in CMA, and follow from the traditional "letter of recommendation"... such hierarchical bullshit does not impose it self upon the student, and so in my school respect is earned and established through combat sport success, not subjective judgement.
The coaches, have their own schools, and certs are issued privately, so the level is not immediately obvious, so when the coaches meet up to train a seminar with me, again , a healthy competition exists, respect has to be earned, wrestling or sparring, and skill not coloured belts is admired.

In the late 1990's I said the belt system in BJJ was a flaw and that within 10 years there would be online ways to earn said belts. I posted this on boards.ie self defence and martial arts forum. I was shot down then, but now one can get a gracie brown belt online... I was proven absolutely correct!

[RobP3]

A world where people argue about the angle of the back foot in single whip.

Which, to me, is exactly what many grading systems are all about. People conforming completely to the minutiae of a constructed syllabus in order to feel good about how they are "progressing". Hence all the arguments over the angle of the back foot in single whip

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[Steve James]

Most sports with belts also have a competitive component. The way one progresses is by beating or equaling someone of a higher rank. Usually, there's also a corresponding curriculum. However, most of these systems have central bodies that monitor the standards.

Then, there are schools with belt ranking systems but no process of competition. Nothing wrong with that, imo, if it makes the people happy. But, the standards are only for that school, and mean nothing outside of it. If a student is asked about his tcc, and responds "I have a green fringe," how should that response be taken?

I guess one way to start would be to find a system of grading that already has an organizing body. But, that raises a different point. If one learned using a grading or belt system, and it worked, there wouldn't be a need to change it. And, if one were not satisfied with the system that one learned under, how would one be able to create a better one? Most people have learned tcc in a certain way, and teach in a similar way.