Belt System for Tai Chi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:31 am

Bjj has a red belt. Rickson Gracie to was just awarded one...by his peers.
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:44 am

In the very beginning, if you try too soon to acquire the empty and flexible, light and quick, then your whole body movement will be full of confusion. If at the very beginning, you talk too much of empty and flexibility you will then acquire floating and be of no use. In taiji these types of people are the so-called "those who do not go out of their house for ten days." Actually, if you do not have a true teacher, a truly good teacher, ten years, or even after all your life you will not be able to "go out of your house" with the skill.

Taijiquan is a skill of reaching a maximum result via a minimum movement. When they move the hand, there is no comparison. They are empty and wonderful. All phenomena are incorporated therein. Regardless of how the other attacks, I rely on my empty and flexible qi.
I can change according to any opportunity presented. I can follow the momentum and respond accordingly, appropriately. Each and every response is just right. People should not focus merely on just one gesture, just one hand.

If they do that they will miss the larger picture. If you use the great Dao (Tao) to connect every movement, to learn just one thing really, really well then everything will be okay. If you only think of using one gesture, one momentum, one qi, then the 10,000 changes are always possible. The intelligent person will do that. http://www.qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?Nam ... .D=Article


A good read with maybe some things that can help in putting together something that one can use in teaching others.
In my own training, there was no talk of belts or ranking, only skill, and relationship, student, disciple, a better word might be
journeyman.

The guild was made up by experienced and confirmed experts in their field of handicraft. They were called master craftsmen. Before a new employee could rise to the level of mastery, he had to go through a schooling period during which he was first called an apprentice. After this period he could rise to the level of journeyman. Apprentices would typically not learn more than the most basic techniques until they were trusted by their peers to keep the guild's or company's secrets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild

Some apprentices could be better in skill then a journeyman, the difference being that if one was an journeyman it donated a committed relationship and level of trust to the teacher, style, family.

Skill in some cases is also a matter or natural talent, in this all are not equal.
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:47 am

Steve James wrote:Bjj has a red belt. Rickson Gracie to was just awarded one...by his peers.


exactly ;)
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:58 am

A belt system isn't really for me, and i'm also planning to start a little group if I can in the upcoming months. I'm not against such a thing, but I'm inclined to agree that as you've layed it out, it comes accross as too involved. Something looser might be better.


I know an external Kung Fu school that has a bit looser system. First sash is "dedication" - testing strength and endurance. The second one is understanding the essence of the arts. The rest I have no clue about, but all of the grades are based on more understanding a greater dedication and developing a better understanding of depth. If I would even attempt some system for grades, it would be similar to this.

Maybe something like this...

Beginner levels:
no sash would be called: " Ha ha, you suck",
first sash: "Ok, you've earned a sash after looking like a fool for such a long time."
next one "Not good, but at least you give it a shot"
third: "Wow, you're still here! Looking better, but you're still a beginner"

Intermediate:
Forth: "A little bit of understanding, starting to make real progress"
Fifth: "Awesome, you've made the form your own."
Sixth: "Foundation accomplished"

Advanced:
Seventh: "Not song enough"
Eighth": "Still not song enough"
Ninth: "C'mon, you've practiced for many years. Get your song straight already!"
Tenth: "Ok, you know all of the crap already. Just keep understanding song better and you'll be alright."

Indoor:
[secret, what else]
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:03 am

Some have asked you about your feelings in your relationship to your students and at what level would you place your self with in it.

Because of the way of life in the West, Tai Chi Chuan teachers have to ply their art in a commercial way. Students pay a certain set fee for class instructions, just like any other classes. This dilutes the respect that are due to teachers. Students think “We pay you, so you have to teach us. That is the end of it. No more, no less.” This is a sad state of affairs.

In Chinese martial arts and secret lore, there is a difference between a student (shue sheng) and a disciple (tu di). This is related to the difference between a teacher (lao shi) and a master (shi fu).

A student is someone who is learning something from a teacher. While the relation is sacred, and there are mutual obligations between the student and the teacher, there is no commitment between them.

A disciple, on the other hand, has committed himself to the master, and the art of his master. The disciple has committed to entering and mastering a secret branch of knowledge and has requested the master to accept him into the arcane path. The relationship is very sacred and the obligations are binding.

http://www.yellowbamboohk.com/tai_chi/t ... nship.html

how do or would you characterize your relationship approach
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:08 am

windwalker wrote:how do or would you characterize your relationship approach


That's a much better and more logical question than "what belt system should I use", IMO. 8-)
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- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby Rhen on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:21 am

Yang family has their Ranking system, but be forewarned, it produced pretentious people who can't fight their way out of a paper bag and it is a waste of time and money.

http://yangfamilytaichi.com/association ... #article-2
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:48 am

Rhen wrote:Yang family has their Ranking system, but be forewarned, it produced pretentious people who can't fight their way out of a paper bag and it is a waste of time and money.

http://yangfamilytaichi.com/association ... #article-2



Maybe their concern is one of quality control and preserving the traditions of their family style over fighting ability. Taiji being a multi-faceted art can be used developed for many things.

The main families Chen yang and Wu are concerned with quality control promoting and keeping the traditions of their families art this is the perspective I would look at .
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:11 am

Without justifying a ranking system, in general, the Yang family requirements seem quite strict and require a long time of study, practice and even publication. At the higher levels, it's required that a student has to have spent five or six years at the previous level to be promoted. So, it seems that the primary requirement for a student is dedication. In this case, it would be to recognized representatives of one branch of a recognized lineage. That means that at the end of those years, they'll at least have that recognition, and that will give them the authority to teach or pass on the lineage as intended.

Afa skills gained, at least those who thought up the system are the examples of the skill. It might never be possible to be better or as good. However, I think that the badge or belt system is a marketing tool. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:31 pm

I know a young guy who is learning hapkido at present
Every time he does a grading it is a double grading
Double fees
He also has to buy each belt and give back the old so the teacher can resell it
The teacher is good and he is learning
However he is not that talented
I was around when all the stripes came in on each belt
Just more money for grading
Some schools you pay more money for grading than you do for training
So bring in belts for tai chi and long live Willie nelson
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby everything on Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:04 pm

Aside from marketing and moneymaking if we're talking about belts mainly for kids, kids and parents like the recognition and the marker of progress. A lot of it is about putting in sustained, disciplined effort over time. As a parent (paying for the classes/grading/etc.) that's important, probably more important than the "technical" or "will this shit work against Bas Rutten" type of question popular on MA forums. In the scheme of things, it doesn't much matter to me if my kids want to do taijiquan, MA, basketball, dance, whatever, if they're getting those benefits, some lifelong exercise habits, and enjoy it.
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:32 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby everything on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:44 pm

Nevermind what anyone says theoretically for a moment.

What are - from an empirical perspective - the students like now in three groups? Beginner, intermediate, advanced?

Doesn't matter for the moment that everyone will criticize all of that or that there is no level that puts someone on Fedor's level or if you are not on that level. Let's just go with the empirically observed levels. You can build on that.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:06 pm

Appledog wrote:
Forgive me but this post probably deserves a FAQ right about now. This question has been asked and answered more than twice now :)


you write a lot, I think you missed my question.

I asked about how you view your relationship to your students.

With the teachers I've known there was no ranking or belt system, it was based on what some might call the traditional way.

"In Chinese martial arts and secret lore, there is a difference between a student (shue sheng) and a disciple (tu di). This is related to the difference between a teacher (lao shi) and a master (shi fu)."

Never trained in what would be called a commercial gym, while I do understand the idea of rankings and goals.

Just to be a student one had to be accepted as such, this was done in verity of ways, a little different then commercial gyms.

With those that I've learned from, and those I work with the ranking/belt system, wasn't something that they used or I .
Within the students everyone knew who the senior students were, if they didn't know they would find out either directly or indirectly.

Senior students were respected because they were senior regardless of skill actual skill,
although in most cases they had the skill donated by time spent and skill achieved.
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Re: Belt System for Tai Chi

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:12 pm

How can you give yourself blue and the master purple? Just saying that he is better doesn't cut it. There needs to be an objective way to determine who is more skilled, like.. uh... sparring (since it is a martial art, after all). You are setting yourself up for failure like this and overcomplicating things. You'll also lose students by demoting them. Encouragement, not discouragement will retain students.
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