3 levels of CMA training

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3 levels of CMA training

Postby johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 1:49 pm

Adam Hsu has defined 3 level of CMA training. There are:

Beginner level: standing punch - punch when feet are not moving.
Intermediate level: running punch - punch when feet are moving (with footwork). In this level, the term "static stance" no longer exist.
Advance level: body twisting punch - punch with body and not with arm. In this level, you only see body movement. You don't see arm movement.

What your opinion on this?
Last edited by johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby Niall Keane on Mon May 29, 2017 2:21 pm

Give me a novice and I'll make them advanced in 60 days so. ;-)

but I take his point, I would add the old saying:

"Correct punching is invisible, the opponent should fall without seeing the shape of your strike!"

timing, range, angle are fundamentals, but creating the opportunity through threat or enticement or both is where its really at.

So I agree, I've seen heavy bag boxers who cant move for shit, I've seen lads who can deliver on the retreat even and yet are easily read. If one can make it 3 dimensional one can learn to strike at will and in an unorthodox manner, overwhelming defenses from all directions... one can then develop the skill my sigung described as "creating favorable conditions". Perhaps that's the 4th level?
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby dspyrido on Mon May 29, 2017 5:33 pm

Jw any videos of level 3?

Agree with nial - there's a lot to be said about the other stuff. jw as you say - what is your entering strategy?

Level 4? How about generating as much power stepping backwards as forwards? Or left to strike right? Or the same power as a full punch in a short range punch where the feet are planted and parallel? Maybe these are the same as level 3 but are just tests of it.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 6:00 pm

dspyrido wrote:Jw any videos of level 3?

Unfortunately I cannot find any clip that "only see the body move and don't see the arm move". Almost all the online clips are "more arm move and less body move". High level training clip is hard to find online.

The preying mantis LaunJie form has a move call "5 continuous palm strikes" that you

- raise your body up for upward back palm strike.
- sink your body down for downward palm strike.
- rotate your body to your left for right to left back palm strike.
- rotate your body to your right for left to right palm strike.
- lean body forward for forward palm strike.

It mainly trains how to use body to push/pull your arm. During the training, you forget your arm and only pay attention on your body. I like that training very much.

Niall Keane wrote:"creating favorable conditions". Perhaps that's the 4th level?

Agree that there should be the 4th level. That is to create opportunity for your punch. I'll call that "entering strategy". After all, fighting is 2 persons art, solo training is not enough.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby C.J.W. on Mon May 29, 2017 6:41 pm

johnwang wrote:Adam Hsu has defined 3 level of CMA training. There are:

Beginner level: standing punch - punch when feet are not moving.
Intermediate level: running punch - punch when feet are moving (with footwork). In this level, the term "static stance" no longer exist.
Advance level: body twisting punch - punch with body and not with arm. In this level, you only see body movement. You don't see arm movement.

What your opinion on this?


Master Hsu was obviously coming from the perspective of a northern stylist when he came up with this model. Personally, I wouldn't necessarily think of them as 3 levels with one being more advanced than the next, but simply different ways to train how to punch and develop speed and power.

For example, in WC, people spend much time practicing the "standing punch," but in Xingyi and Baji, most of the forms focus on running and twisting punch. Can we then simply conclude that Xingyi and Baji are more advanced than WC?

Don't think so.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 6:50 pm

C.J.W. wrote: Can we then simply conclude that Xingyi and Baji are more advanced than WC?

Don't think so.

The question is which training sequence can make more sense?

Should you

- train running punch before your train static punch. It's like trying to run without learning how to walk.
- start with body method punch? It can be very difficult for beginner.

Let's use another example. What should be the correct training order if not 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 3 -> 4?

1. static punch.
2. 1 step 1 punch.
3. 1 step 3 punches.
4.. 3 steps 1 punch.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby everything on Mon May 29, 2017 6:51 pm

I consider myself a striking beginner; I'd say both 1 and 2.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby kenneth fish on Mon May 29, 2017 7:07 pm

The highest level is to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

These are not Ali's greatest fights - but they give a very good view of his body technique, timing, and footwork.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby WongYing on Wed May 31, 2017 4:22 am

all of Ali's knockout punches are from either a cross or hook, to temple or jaw
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby kenneth fish on Wed May 31, 2017 11:47 am

What is worth noting is that even the seemingly lightest of his jabs incorporates leg, hip and body motion driving the strike.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby dspyrido on Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:42 pm

johnwang wrote:Unfortunately I cannot find any clip that "only see the body move and don't see the arm move". Almost all the online clips are "more arm move and less body move". High level training clip is hard to find online.


Perhaps it's a training ideal that got lost in translation? A saying like "punch with the legs" or even "punch with the bows" can be swapped with "punch with the body not the arms".

johnwang wrote:The preying mantis LaunJie form has a move call "5 continuous palm strikes" that you

- raise your body up for upward back palm strike.
- sink your body down for downward palm strike.
- rotate your body to your left for right to left back palm strike.
- rotate your body to your right for left to right palm strike.
- lean body forward for forward palm strike.

It mainly trains how to use body to push/pull your arm. During the training, you forget your arm and only pay attention on your body. I like that training very much.


Similar in xy & others like baji. The rotations work in unison with the body the stepping being aligned. You classed them as Intermediate level. But in xy & others (eg repulse the monkey) we see the step back and forward punch and other multi-directional strikes.

I think of this as advanced striking by being able to hit hard while:

- sinking the body & striking up
- raising the body and striking down
- twisting away from the strike
- stepping back and striking forward

The advanced part is that while the body is moving in the opposite direction to the final punch when the impact is about to land the direction changes to support the strike. So the hand and foot, body twisting, bows engaging, weight dropping or whatever and all come into play only for a spilt second so as to be enough to power the punch.

It's hard to see with naked eye and many people won't believe it has any power if it's described.

Ali called it the anchor punch but it's a universal concept for all directions and can take on any strike from the 7 stars. Luckily it can be seen in Ali with slowed down video.



kenneth fish wrote:What is worth noting is that even the seemingly lightest of his jabs incorporates leg, hip and body motion driving the strike.


Yes getting the punch right takes masterful conditioning effort. Getting the timing is just double wow.



I know there are ima videos of this sort of striking but their damned hard to find. Most of the time ima videos have guys who can't do an intermediate strike properly trying to describe the advanced mechanics.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:23 pm

dspyrido wrote:
johnwang wrote:Unfortunately I cannot find any clip that "only see the body move and don't see the arm move". Almost all the online clips are "more arm move and less body move". High level training clip is hard to find online.

Perhaps it's a training ideal that got lost in translation? A saying like "punch with the legs" or even "punch with the bows" can be swapped with "punch with the body not the arms".

It's the power and speed issue. If you let your body to push/pull your arm, it's slower than to let your body to chase your arm. Most of the time, you will not see both extremes but something in between.

To let your power to be generated from your back heel, go through your back leg, hip, body, shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your hand can be slow. When you see a mosquito flies in front of your face, if you use this method to kill that mosquito, when your power can reach to your hand, that mosquito will be long gone.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:55 pm

To let your power to be generated from your back heel, go through your back leg, hip, body, shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your hand can be slow. When you see a mosquito flies in front of your face, if you use this method to kill that mosquito, when your power can reach to your hand, that mosquito will be long gone


+ 1

It is the argument going around in the last few decades - push vs follow.
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:39 pm

You don't need power to kill a mozzi
A man is a different thing
Power in tai chi is circular
The last move is the start of the next
All is generated by your opponent
A full stop is just a small circle
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 3 levels of CMA training

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:39 pm

johnwang wrote:To let your power to be generated from your back heel, go through your back leg, hip, body, shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your hand can be slow. When you see a mosquito flies in front of your face, if you use this method to kill that mosquito, when your power can reach to your hand, that mosquito will be long gone.


Agreed for some situations especially first hit attacks aimed to stun. But when trained well things can be different ...



Also if the the opponents face is heading towards your fist when you've grounded your back heel, leg, hip etc then it's going to collect their head.

Speed of the final move can be adjusted with accurate setup, timing and placement. The benefit then is with the whole body power it makes people look like they are swatted mosquito's.
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