analyze this gif

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

analyze this gif

Postby everything on Mon May 29, 2017 6:31 pm

at first it may look like he is just wildly swinging. what do you think?

Image
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: analyze this gif

Postby BruceP on Mon May 29, 2017 8:32 pm

Often called, "Touch & Go"

With practice, you learn the distancing and timing for your punch off the touch. A method of managing range while moving forward.
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: analyze this gif

Postby johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 8:41 pm

Every punch that you throw at your opponent, his respond will cause him to open another area, you then punch that opening. In preying mantis term, it's called "find the leak". Sometime the leak can be predicted. This is why you train combo such as

- groin kick, face punch.
- hook punch, uppercut.
- ...
Last edited by johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: analyze this gif

Postby windwalker on Mon May 29, 2017 8:45 pm

BruceP wrote:Often called, "Touch & Go"

With practice, you learn the distancing and timing for your punch off the touch. A method of managing range while moving forward.

+1 ;)

Hardly "just swinging" as BP mentioned look at the distancing and timing.
As long as the other guy remained in range he was in trouble...some how he either had to jam it,
slip it, or try to move away.. Which it seems like he was trying but he moved directly back instead of off at an angle.
we would call that stealing step ..

"finding the leak" yep PM uses this a lot...
very interesting things happen when there is no leak to be found.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon May 29, 2017 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10549
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: analyze this gif

Postby johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 10:42 pm

windwalker wrote:very interesting things happen when there is no leak to be found.

That's exactly what I was working on for the past many years.

No leak -> your opponent can't hit you -> you are safe to enter -> you will have good entering strategy
Last edited by johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: analyze this gif

Postby marvin8 on Tue May 30, 2017 12:08 am

everything wrote:at first it may look like he is just wildly swinging. what do you think?

Image

It's a Sambo casting punch, that can lead to a throw.

Uploaded on Oct 21, 2009
The Fight Nerd heads to NY Combat Sambo to breakdown and demonstrate how to throw a sambo style "casting punch", which is most notably used by Fedor Emelianeko. Ever noticed how his punches might look "sloppy" or "loopy"? Here is why it looks that way to the untrained eye and how you can add this technique to your arsenal!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JISgLclfX3c
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue May 30, 2017 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: analyze this gif

Postby Strange on Tue May 30, 2017 1:10 am

i'm with john on the"leak" he mentioned.

but also like to add that it is important to do your own thing
and not follow what your opponent is doing
for me the turning point was when he decided to punch with
the left upper cut instead of going for a clinch
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
User avatar
Strange
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5573
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 1:33 am

Re: analyze this gif

Postby C.J.W. on Tue May 30, 2017 4:37 am

What I find interesting is how effective circular strikes can be at the hands of a great fighter like Fedor.

In CMA, many systems emphasize the importance of straight-line punching and the necessity to guard the center line. However, in boxing, MMA, and other free-fighting competitions, we see that most knockouts are usually achieved by hooks and other types of curved punches that expose the center line as opposed to straight punches that guard it.

IMO, straight punches may reach the target faster, but the trajectory is also more predictable and easier to dodge or deflect compared to curved punches, which may come from various angles and directions and can often catch the opponent off guard. And although one's center line may be momentarily exposed when throwing a curved punch, due to the inward-sweeping motion of the strike, it is often not an issue because any attack aimed at the exposed center line can still be cleared and countered.

Just a different perspective and food for thought for CMAists who are interested in fighting.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Tue May 30, 2017 4:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1933
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: analyze this gif

Postby GrahamB on Tue May 30, 2017 6:19 am

Everything Fedor is doing is about getting around the other guys guard.

The front gate is blocked so circular strikes go around it and he closes the distance, then, as he pulls back to get more room to strike again he pulls down on the hand of the opponent (with his left), opening his head up to further strikes (from his right).

After getting popped in the head a few time the guys hands come back up, and then Fedor goes to the body, dropping him.

It's old school boxing arm trapping.
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue May 30, 2017 6:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13555
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: analyze this gif

Postby everything on Tue May 30, 2017 7:01 am

I think that's all it.

What do you think of his deliberate off-balancing technique? Or do you think that's only a side benefit of his seemingly swing-for-the-fences technique?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: analyze this gif

Postby windwalker on Tue May 30, 2017 7:10 am

In CMA, many systems emphasize the importance of straight-line punching and the necessity to guard the center line. However, in boxing, MMA, and other free-fighting competitions, we see that most knockouts are usually achieved by hooks and other types of curved punches that expose the center line as opposed to straight punches that guard it. In CMA, many systems emphasize the importance of straight-line punching and the necessity to guard the center line. However, in boxing, MMA, and other free-fighting competitions, we see that most knockouts are usually achieved by hooks and other types of curved punches that expose the center line as opposed to straight punches that guard it.


Hop gar style has many different types of circular punching.
Back in the 70s a lot of the long arm type punching was not allowed in back in the day.
In the gym I was at they tried to address this by incorporating boxing hands to conform to the rule sets.
As mentioned what seems to be easy to see and block is often not seen due to angles, range, and positioning.

As JW mentioned, PM has leaking hand and uses a combination of very fast flurries to find or create and exploit
the leak, the flurries are delivered using what are called "beats" 3, 5 ect...
In this sense from a taiji perspective, we refer to this type of strategy as "blind" meaning that once launched its not easy to adjust or change.

Very different approach than taiji depending on how practiced were movements should be real time. If one can remain neutral in real
time its very difficult to find the opening or leak to enter as there is no point that is being protected and no point that is not protected.
The difficulty with this is remaining "neutral" not so easy...
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10549
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: analyze this gif

Postby Steve James on Tue May 30, 2017 7:41 am

In muay thai, it's called the long hook. It's not just a circular punch, and not like the boxer's hook. But, imo, that's because in arts that move from kicking to grappling range, it offers more opportunities than a simple jab and doesn't leave one as exposed as a straight right cross.

Thing is, it's not about the punch, per se. It's that Fedor connects. Sloppy punches are those that are thrown wide and miss. Hey, in Pride and other venues, there are guys so huge that they don't seem to be able to throw a straight punch. Remember that world's strongest man against Gracie match?

It's a great idea to be able to throw a punch that if it lands will knock the other guy out, but if it doesn't, can turn immediately into a standing grappling hold. What's to complain?
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21137
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: analyze this gif

Postby Steve James on Tue May 30, 2017 7:45 am

Hmm, und so, what should the other guy do? What did he do wrong?
Btw, I'm not asking who thinks he could beat Fedor :) I'm asking about the counter to the caster punch. Ok, "don't get hit" is always a good strategy.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21137
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: analyze this gif

Postby everything on Tue May 30, 2017 7:56 am

Wondering as well. Perhaps that match was really a mis-match but it's a good question. I haven't seen the Henderson Fedor match, but it sounds like Henderson was getting beat but then pulled off an uppercut that gave him a big upset win. So is the answer something like "you're almost definitely gonna take a beating and then you better have some amazing punching yourself"?

The thing about Fedor's round punches is they at least connect and rock the opponent's guard, which flow into either more punches or a takedown. We can see Fedor initially remove Sylvia's left hand, then later pull Sylvia's right hand down. His swinging right becomes a neck grab to uppercut. What strikes me the most is that Fedor forces Sylvia to move and even weight shift that he must be exploiting because those shifts are connected to Sylvia's (in)ability to deliver a certain power punch at that certain moment (would appreciate it if someone can explain more). So another question is: what is a defense against the guard-removal and off-balancing techniques?
Last edited by everything on Tue May 30, 2017 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: analyze this gif

Postby marvin8 on Tue May 30, 2017 8:01 am

GrahamB wrote:Everything Fedor is doing is about getting around the other guys guard.

The front gate is blocked so circular strikes go around it and he closes the distance, then, as he pulls back to get more room to strike again he pulls down on the hand of the opponent (with his left), opening his head up to further strikes (from his right).

After getting popped in the head a few time the guys hands come back up, and then Fedor goes to the body, dropping him.

It's old school boxing arm trapping.

As I mentioned, MMA uses similar strategies to CMA. It makes sense, since MMA includes CMA (e.g., Roy Nelson, Pat Barry, Nick Osipczak, etc.). I often see more CMA strategies in high level MMA, then I do in CMA competitions.

MMA uses the yin/yang principle to create "leaks." Use inside/outside, straight/curve, high/low, push/pull, kick/punch, slow/fast, etc, attacks.

MMA also uses sticking, trapping, hand fighting, simultaneous offense/defense, absorb/hit, swallow/spit, etc.

windwalker wrote:As JW mentioned, PM has leaking hand and uses a combination of very fast flurries to find or
create and exploit
the leak, the flurries are delivered using what are called "beats" 3, 5 ect...
In this sense from a taiji perspective, we refer to this type of strategy as "blind" meaning that
once launched its not easy to adjust or change.

MMA controls timing and rhythm by setting a rhythm then, mixing full beats and half beats creating reactions from the opponent, confusing, then finishing them.

Broken rhythm is used in both hands, feet, and footwork.

windwalker wrote:Very different approach than taiji depending on how practiced were movements should be real time. If one can remain neutral in real
time its very difficult to find the opening or leak to enter as there is no point that is being protected and no point that is not protected.
The difficulty with this is remaining "neutral" not so easy...

Can you explain how the "remaining neutral" approach would make it "very difficult to find the opening or leak to enter as there is no point that is being protected and no point that is not protected" against Fedor?
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue May 30, 2017 1:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests