Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

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Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby wiesiek on Wed May 31, 2017 3:12 am

Preface:
Recently I`ve noticed strange book in bookstore near by my place.
Very expensive edition and absolutely tasteless cover , I picked it up `cause part of the title included - Art of Polish Sabre Fencing. However, next subtitle : " In Defense of the Gospel" hurts my eye, so I dropped it for few days...

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/znak ... t_cz_2.jpg

In addition, I recall this author /Zbigniew Sawicki/ earlier book about TCMA, where he was wearing black pijama, :-X
Anyway, I did brief reading -
and -
wow, he definitely did nice work in finding the historical sources, not only from the Polish side of blade.
Warning:
for Polish language readers - you need kinda of filter, for parts: pathetically, nationally written by the Author ::) ,
or thesis like -Zawisza the Black as Miamoto Musaschi of the our ancient knights...

How good his MA really is - couldn`t say - never met him, maybe our Dacheng may chime in - his dojo is located close to the Mr Sawicki area.
Anyway, content of the book looks very interesting, and I would like put it on our board for discussion/verification .
so,
what we have there:
- straight sword to sabre evolution and comparison
- Polish Hussars sabre special design
- Katana and sabre duel
- etiquette
- rules of the techniques - here we can find specific famous >Polish cuts< like "catch eleven" for ex.

I will translate part of it later for our boards fencing lovers.

Today something for the Bodywork:
DaitoRyu meting with Polish Sabre.
From 17 to 19th of September 2010, took the place 2nd Word Scientific Congres of Combat Sports and M.A. organized and leads by Rzeszów University . During the demonstrations, presented there , Dr R.J. Maroteaux -president of World Takeda Ryu Marotokan Federation got the hang of the Polish hussar sabre fencing essence, and found in its technique similarities to the Japanese swordsmanship.
Dr Maroteaux decided to make comparative analysis of some chosen technique.
He published his consideration in number 55 of AikiGoshindo-Kaishi.
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby jaime_g on Wed May 31, 2017 3:48 am

If I would had to make a comparison between Polish sabre fencing and asian styles, I would pick things like Tongbei or Pigua, swinging styles.

Daito ryu and Polish sabre...no. Just no.
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby Ashura on Wed May 31, 2017 7:11 am

wiesiek wrote:DaitoRyu meting with Polish Sabre.
From 17 to 19th of September 2010, took the place 2nd Word Scientific Congres of Combat Sports and M.A. organized and leads by Rzeszów University . During the demonstrations, presented there , Dr R.J. Maroteaux -president of World Takeda Ryu Marotokan Federation got the hang of the Polish hussar sabre fencing essence, and found in its technique similarities to the Japanese swordsmanship.
Dr Maroteaux decided to make comparative analysis of some chosen technique.
He published his consideration in number 55 of AikiGoshindo-Kaishi.


Hi Wiesiek,

This is very interesting. Roland Maroteaux who sometimes goes by the name of Minamoto no Maroto (Maroteaux and Maroto have the same prononciation but Maroto does definetly look more japanese) started with Hakko-ryu under Okuyama, the founder of the style, student of Matsuda Toshimi, himself a student of Sokaku Takeda.

He then went to Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha under Nakamura Hisashi. Takeda-ryu usually make some bold claims and consider Daito-ryu as a secondary school. At some point, Nakamura expelled Maroteaux from the school. He now promotes a style called Mondo-ryu, the leader of this style is Yokoyama Masashi.

Maroteaux does not claim to teach Daito-ryu, I do not know which style of Kenjutsu he studied but in Daito-ryu, trainees do practice Ono-ha Itto-ryu.

I could not find the article, is it written in english, polish or french? If you have a link (polish is fine), I would be interested to read it.

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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby wiesiek on Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:07 am

@ jaime, I`m not on position to make such announcement ,
but
lookin` on Ashura post, - Mr Maroteaux could :)
obvious difference is in weapon handle- katana can go as two hands while sabre is one hand , if we don`t count techniques when supporting the blade, of course.
so
we have >special Polish Hussars seasoning < - the handle.
Handle of the Polish Hussars sabre has extra, side support for the thumb.
This has some disadvantage - have to go thru "extra" training for using the weapon by left hand, however it allows some extraordinary cuts to be done. This modification alone ads so much to the sabre, that its worth katana as the weapon.
Quality of the blade:
Original Hussars sabre was tested for the strength by cutting thick nail protruding from the wall.
Blade shouldn`t be affected.

@Ashura,
only link avalible from the book is: editors and MA Club Signum Polonicum. From their site I got link to the book /in my initial post/.
Final chapter of the book including article/s/ about the Congress and meeting with Mr Maroteaux. There is also reprint of the cover 55 no of the "Aiki..." journal, and article :"Similtudes du sabre Polonias and Japonais" by Maroteaux, unfortunately onyl 1st page, in French for sure.
But if you can read Polish - get the book . it is cheap / less than $10/ and lot good info,
po przefiltrowaniu tych narodowych bzdetów, oczywiście, ;)

some candy for today:
From the book about Poland printed in London 1846 - info about sabre demo:

On each country market, or up front municipal buildings during any meetings you could see a sabre duel or demo.
Excellency of using the weapon was showed by whirling so fast , that small rocks throwing form the "medium" /?/ distance cannot go thru , and touch the body.
Second famous demo was quite "samurai" style - cutting silk tissue on the half, in the air... -oldman-
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby RickMatz on Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:01 am

From "The Deluge."
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby yeniseri on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:10 am

The perfect combination!
When you learn a system i.e. weapons affiliated with it, it does not mean that one cannot replicate with a weapon outside of said system.
If you learn staff then spear, a rake, a pic etc will conform to the action needed for defense or otherwise. Dao (saber!) jian, can conform to use with other weapon criteria i.e. stab, slash, point, etc
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby wiesiek on Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:29 am

Duel posted by Rick is win by "catch eleven", by half of it , actually, :), for full version : you have to return faster with second shorter cut to make mark- I , close to the 1st one, hence the name. Here thumb supporting the handle plays major role .
Obviously, Wołodyjowski - the winner, didn`t fight with hussars sabre .
Most proper cut of this kind should leave marks on 3rd eye.
It can be done on the horizontal/diagonal planes too, aimed on side of the skull .
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby wiesiek on Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:47 am

Dish for today:
how to decapitate the adversary in one move :
" Turkish Cut"
This one was adopted from our east flank`s wars/ guess with whom / during the evolutions of swords blade to the curved shape.
This particular cut was done as follow:

When blade gets in touch with the adversary body, you `re changing direction by fast pull in your body center.

Skilled swordsmen / don`t know is it better to use "sabremen" instead?/ using this technique could effortlessly :D ,cut of the enemy head.
Here we have also example of the advantage curved blade over straight. When using jian it is hard to do such move, but easy with the dao/katana.
Last edited by wiesiek on Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby wiesiek on Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:02 am

What made PSF /Polish Sabre Fencing/ Polish :
>NYŻYKIEM<
cut.
Sorry, unable to translate it precisely, name of this particular cut -"nyżykiem", has been used in Starzewski`s fencing manual , from XVIII c.,
published couple years after Germans Mayer `s lexicone /1888y./ where you can find it under the name: " DIE HOLLISHE POLNISHE QUARTE zwan",
- Devils Polish Quoter in English literature . This cut has also the name - "The Senator`s cut".

It is quite hard to do, `cause you have to twist the wrist in twisting upward move.
You directing the sabre diagonally from right to left cutting adversary from his hip thru the chest to his right arm.
Practically in the fight:
You can do it directly after 2nd, 3rd and 5th defense/cover.
Cuts after 2nd and 3rd are done from left hip of the opponent.
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby wiesiek on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:17 am

ps.
If I stretch a little / have no idea about archaic English/:
"nyżykiem" may be understand as - hidden lo - , but in reality it is : diagonal upper slash , so it can be named - " hidden diagonal upper cut"
and
in the fact there are two possibility of such move - both are parts of the 8 figure.
Slash is done from right hip to the left arm, or from left hip to the right arm, respectively .

from very big bibliography/sources list of the book, I`ve noted publications:
- Mary Barton; an historical tale of Poland. by Count Henry Krasinski. vol.1 London 1846
- Mayers Lexikon 1885-1892
- Luis Pacheco de Narvaez " Librode las Grandezas de la Espada 1599
- Werner Johann, Adolph Ludwig, "Versuch einer theoretischen Anveisung zur Fechtkunst in Hiebe." Lepizg 1824

Rest of this long list was printed in Poland or contemporary Russia.
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Re: Polish Sabre Fencing and Daito Ryu

Postby HotSoup on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:26 am

jaime_g wrote:If I would had to make a comparison between Polish sabre fencing and asian styles, I would pick things like Tongbei or Pigua, swinging styles.

Daito ryu and Polish sabre...no. Just no.


Daito-ruy's armless techniques are designed to primarily fight a katana-armed opponent, right? While definitely not the same, there are some similarities between Polish saber and katana in terms of trajectories and techniques. If the author is motivated, talented, and what's more important well-versed in both enough, he could synthesize Daito-ryu with saber fencing into something. What that "something" would be is another story :)
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