New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby bartekb on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:05 pm

CMA never comes out well in this.
If some one wins a match using clear stylistic movement, most will say the other person had no skill
If some one loses a match using clear stylistic movement, most will say that its to be expected.
If some one looks or moves completely different that what is practiced, most will say, "fighting" looks like fighting.
confirming their own expectations

thats why you just compete.
You will be matched against your equal and if you win - everyone will know - at that day, against that opponent - you were better, and if you lose - you tried and did your best and hopefully learned stuff.

Niall has nothing to prove there - he could have just kept quiet. Maybe he could have been nicer but he was sincere for sure.
Just go out and properly test your stuff - you have students - test it for them.
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:08 pm

windwalker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8mxqY2Ko_M

MaartenSFS, demo was just a demo showing movement in a somewhat live setting.
Some have also commented on this clip showing Peter Ralston, demoing his art in a somewhat live setting.

Many if they did not know of his rep, might say the same things that some have mentioned about
the OP demo clip.

CMA never comes out well in this.
If some one wins a match using clear stylistic movement, most will say the other person had no skill
If some one loses a match using clear stylistic movement, most will say that its to be expected.
If some one looks or moves completely different that what is practiced, most will say, "fighting" looks like fighting.
confirming their own expectations

"fighting" win or lose looks like what ever was trained or not trained. If there is no relationship shown to what was trained then it was not trained enough
or the practice itself is flawed. Which was and is a common theme with many who say they practice CMA but never seem to use what they practice when needed.

The real answers are always from within, based on ones own experience and level of experience.
MarrtenSFS can only share what his experience has been and is while in China. Asking him to compete in some match or what
ever to meet someone else's expectations is asinine. If one can not relate or see the value of his work thats their problem.

Whether I agree with something or not, what I look for and evaluate is training, usage, and technical aspects,
which is why I had asked about foot work.

MaartenSFS, was kind enough to answer my questions regarding this. He has something to show, and is working very hard on the right mix and way to do this.
kudos to him and others doing the same.

Thank you for your kind words, David.

Do you have any more from this guy? I see how what he's doing could be taken out of context. I'd love to see whether or not he can pull it off in a real sparring match.

I can tell you that my own expectations are high enough for me. I still have a long way to go before reaching them! ;D
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:14 pm

califax wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:https://maartensfs.wixsite.com/shanzhaiquan/media


I like your video, especially your approach of taking your training seriously and learning to apply what you train instead of something entirely else.
However, I have some doubts if these move actually are meant for empty hand combat. I just can't see how anybody could impress a seasoned striker or grappler with these attacks.
The impression I have changes radically as son as I put a couple of daos or a guandao into these hands. In that case (and the dao has been a widespread standard weapon in china for centuries) your wild swinging moves become a terrifyingly effective fencing system.

I can assure you that they work fine in unarmed combat, though I generally use the short version of these and use the wilder ones the least. Still, when they come into plan they can really scare the opponent, as even blocking them is a bad idea. You are right that they were designed for both unarmed and armed combat. I personally find that a pen or other short, sharp object is the best for most of these. 8-)
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:15 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Do you have any more from this guy? I see how what he's doing could be taken out of context. I'd love to see whether or not he can pull it off in a real sparring match.

I can tell you that my own expectations are high enough for me. I still have a long way to go before reaching them! ;D


I think he may have been before the time of many here

some may have saw the movie "blood sport" he lived it.

Image
http://chenghsin.com/dvd-fightplaydemo.html


I went there as a middleweight, but after a 22-hour trip, I had put on so much weight from the water and food that I was overweight. When they discovered the problem, they were concerned, so I told them to put me into heavyweight. I didn’t mind; it didn’t matter who I fought. In the end, I ended up in the light-heavyweight division.

Were the other fighters doing single forms or did they do various styles like you?
Single forms, as far as I could tell. I didn’t ask them but just watching all the fights — you don’t have much else to do — it looked like they were all pretty much in their own thing.

In believe your first opponent didn’t even show up?
Yeah. A Korean. I was warming up, getting ready to fight and I had this student, an ex-karate guy, helping me. He had a badge on his uniform. I had him hold his arm up to block me, so there was almost no space between his arm and his badge. I would hit him twice before he could move his arm. I think the Korean saw that and decided to not fight me after all.

And you didn’t lose a fight in the five days?
No, if you lost, you were out. One opponent had won his way through to my round by making an illegal move. When I asked about it, they told me that the other fighter couldn’t continue and they expected that at this level that fighters would be able to stand up to this sort of thing. In another fight, the fighter had big gnarly legs and he kept trying to break my knees. It was okay in the rules, so I was fine with it.

How tough was the final?
My opponent was encouraged by his corner, filled with his supporters. It was clear to me that he couldn’t beat me, and I made that clear to him as well, but he was pushed to continue. To bring it to a close, at the end of the last round I kicked him in the body and could feel I did significant damage to his internal organs. At this moment I backed up, since in no way did I want to be forced to engage and do more damage.

After this match his teacher and trainer wanted to have me in a picture with him. I told them to take him to the hospital since he was obviously injured, but they insisted on the picture. I figured it would be faster just to get it over with rather than to argue. He was having trouble standing up and was pale and bleeding from the mouth from internal injuries.

https://www.blitzmag.net/people/kungfu- ... bloodsport


Any suggestions for those wanting to be MMA fighters?
When you deal with most people, weight, strength and crude ambition win, but when you start dealing with real fighters, if they can get beyond the crudeness and start to think, then the other stuff doesn’t matter as much. As for training, learn boxing from boxers, grappling and throws from judo; if you want kicks, go do some Muay Thai, but it’s not necessary. Train with the martial arts that actually fight.


Train with the martial arts that actually fight.


Something that most here would agree with.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:19 pm

johnwang wrote:
RobP3 wrote:the best defence against boxing is....boxing?

The best defense against

- boxing is ... wrestling.
- wrestling is ... boxing.

Unless you have devoted all your training time in boxing, or wrestling, if you try to box a boxer, or wrestle a wrestler, it's not a smart strategy. So how to wrestler a boxer? Try to obtain your clinch ASAP.

Image

That only works if they don't do clinch fighting. I do. Two days ago a boxer tried to take my head off (he was shit-talking TCMA before that), but when I let him get close and started to fight from the clinch he was in a world of hurt and the fight had to be broken up. The boxing instructor was suitably impressed and totally changed his mind about my style and now encourages me to further develop it. He tries to keep his pointers more universal than before, urging me to tighten up my techniques and footwork. It's great and exactly what I need.
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:23 pm

I wanted to add that I use a lot of these when retreating (in a circle, not a straight line) and that the power is the same. They just run right into them.
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:23 am

Interesting mixed bag of reactions & I can understand both supporters & detractors. The video is a collection of examples of things that are atypical to orthodox boxing & are easily dismissed. Sure Maarten did not step into a ring to record his top 10 knockout moments but that should not take away the potential value of the moves.

Why? If you can move and punch in an orthodox way then pulling in atypical moves can play havoc with an opponent.



No I am not saying that lomanchenko trained under maarten to lean these moves. What I am saying is that the moves in maartens clip can be used to really play havoc with an opponent especially when they are mixed in with what is typical orthodox striking methods. There are many momements lomanchenko does exactly that by using flurries, lifting his arm above, slapping the arms away.

I've seen similar thing being done in sanda where many are trained in orthodox striking but throw in moves that considered poor boxing or useless. As mentioned if they are done well and in conjunction with orthodox striking these sorts of things can really mess up someone who is only conditioned under orthodox boxing.
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby RobP3 on Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:34 am

johnwang wrote:
RobP3 wrote:the best defence against boxing is....boxing?

The best defense against

- boxing is ... wrestling.
- wrestling is ... boxing.



I'm using the term "boxing" here in its broadest sense. What I mean more is training in a delivery system that actually involves moving around, hitting/grabbing and getting hit/grabbed as the bulk of your training rather than most of the emphasis being on forms (which are worked on solo even when there is a group of people) and then trying to shoehorn movements from those forms into a boxing type environment. It's just easier to say "boxing" :)
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:56 am

Big respect for your adventurous life here in China, i myself took the easy way, settled settled in the same city for ten years and living just beside the park i study and train. My TJQ teacher also teach Tongbeiquan and he wanted me to study that too. Initially i was skeptic about the big swing arm moves thinking that would never work agains a fighter, but anyway i began swinging. Sure those big moves can work in a fight but i found out quick those moves developed the torso and drawing force from ground up and out in the arms/hands, it improved the more regular strikes such as used in boxing, and also helps( for me) with timing and throw non telegaphic srikes. This is the value those big swing moves have for me, not to use them per se in fighting, + the swing moves get the heart going quick still keeps the breath smoth at the same time.
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:58 am

RobP3 wrote:
johnwang wrote:
RobP3 wrote:the best defence against boxing is....boxing?

The best defense against

- boxing is ... wrestling.
- wrestling is ... boxing.



I'm using the term "boxing" here in its broadest sense. What I mean more is training in a delivery system that actually involves moving around, hitting/grabbing and getting hit/grabbed as the bulk of your training rather than most of the emphasis being on forms (which are worked on solo even when there is a group of people) and then trying to shoehorn movements from those forms into a boxing type environment. It's just easier to say "boxing" :)


The more practical contingent of the Tai Chi world still seems awfully obsessed with trying to fit forms into reality, in sparring situations. (Cue video clips of 'here's a video of me doing brush knee in a sanda fight'). It might just be better all round to make a clean break?
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby cloudz on Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:49 am

Something similar to one of Maartens techs (horizontal/circular style) found in the CTH Wu style line.
Wim Demeere




I like the circularity in here and it's a useful drill for sure. I think, for example, this gets more discreet and smaller; the faster and more urgency/ power you need, the look can change somewhat form this demonstration / training.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:39 am

cloudz wrote:Something similar to one of Maartens techs (horizontal/circular style) found in the CTH Wu style line.
Wim Demeere




I like the circularity in here and it's a useful drill for sure. I think, for example, this gets more discreet and smaller; the faster and more urgency/ power you need, the look can change somewhat form this demonstration / training.



So what have I to say about that eh??? Complaining about big circular moves?? ;D

I take your point but!!!

And it's a big BUT!

Watch his video... notice the lad to our left in the drill behind Wim is fairly tight in his efforts in total contrast to the big more horizontal , less spiraling moves of the lad in the back right? (That lad has no waist movement either.. it all in the arms... so he's clearly a beginner in contrast with th lad keeping it tight)

Now here's a vid I posted before on the sparrrig thread precisely to counter the "looks like TCMA bs":

https://youtu.be/JnK8g5tiKs0

Around 1.45 in I use rolling thunder....BUT !! Just before and after I give precise reasons for how and why we apply it. And what we avoid.

Now these same details are clearly absent in Martains vids. .. and for sure I was a cnut about it... well.. im a fighter in trained to retaliate not cower and Martian sprouted some truly ignorant shit in reference to my own students.

You won't find me critique any other "sparring" on the net... it not my style to piss on a praiseworthy process.

So... for sure I applaud the efforts martain is making, he needs to curb his enthusiasm for dispariaging what he doesn't yet understand and he sure as hell does need to test shit out properly especially as he not practicing for his own sake alone but has students. And so a duty to them.

I'd say he stands a good chance IF he can actually take on board criticism of even tightening up and reverse engineering the flaws out of his methods.

Wim's video above captures something important outside of the rolling thunder. It captures two people in the background doing what the ignorant will see as the same thing but the discerning eye reads as completely different.

Now if both these guys started teaching tomorrow and never competed again what's going to happen with the art and the students of the lad with massive holes in his understanding?

And that my friends is the story of CMA! !!
Last edited by Niall Keane on Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:53 pm

If he turns those three guys behind him into fighters I'm sold
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:04 pm

wayne hansen wrote:If he turns those three guys behind him into fighters I'm sold


I shouldn't laugh!!!

I'll be the first to acknowledge that there are plenty of "Practical" lads at "different levels"! And students come in all shapes and sizes...

But in fairness, as for Wim himself, he has been Belgium Sanda Coach at one time and turned out plenty of fighters, he knows what he's doing! ... I'd say he's fairly confident and rightly so, this is a video of class training, and he's not elitist, it's his livelihood, and his coaching - its for everyone, and perhaps that's what he's communicating. Believe me, or not, just google it, but when people ask about me, those videos of me with obvious fighters like Karl Kidd, Wayne Marshall, Dec Gernon, Sébastien Marquet, Dermot, Mark, Oisin etc. etc.. (sorry lads) have PUT PEOPLE RIGHT OFF training with me:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums ... p?t=103947
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Re: New Instructional Video - How to Use the Art in Sparring

Postby shoebox55 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:20 am

dspyrido wrote:





Are there drills one can practice to develop this ability to read a punch like this guy?
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