Tai Chi punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby everything on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:00 am

Steve James wrote:
You only see taiji guys put down external guys.


Well, maybe that's on RSF. But, really, taiji guys put down other taiji guys more than anything now. I understand why both sides take offense. And, unfortunately (or just boringly),it's because "both" sides seem to want to stress their superiority, or at least the non-superiority (and often inferiority) of the other. Imo, they could learn from each other. But, then that's considered cheating (by many).


you have to be passive aggressive to qualify for "internal" ;D
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:03 pm

windwalker wrote:taiji or styles like taiji use a different method . . .

The main difference is how the energy is transported.

taiji relies on 4 basic ideas to transport force, attaching, sticking, follow, release...regardless of shape.

windwalker wrote:All Chinese MA use internal principles, the "method" by which they are expressed is quit different.
The topic of the thread was about the distinctions between methods attempting to show what
the difference might be or is...

marvin8 wrote:
robert wrote:
Published on Jul 21, 2015
Chen Tai Chi competition. Wang Zhanjun is the son of Wang Xi'an . Wang Xi'an is one of four greatest grandmasters of Chen Tai Chi. The four grandmasters are Chen Xiaowang, Wang Xi'an, Chen Zhenglei, Zhu tiancai. They learnt Tai Chi together , the same teacher.

Now that we have an actual video of tai chi sparring and Wang Zhan Jun has practiced "taji shenfa" for more than 10 years . . .
marvin8 wrote:Do you believe this taiji shenfa has been displayed in the push hands competitions, tai chi combat competitions, or sparring, that we have seen?

marvin8 wrote:Which goes back to the OP:
GrahamB wrote:I'm interested in what you think.

1. Is there a difference between a good Sanda punch and a good Tai Chi punch? If so, what's your reasoning. And if not, what's your reasoning.

2. If you've been on the receiving end of punches from different styles (say, in competition or sparring) - did they feel different? If so, how?


Here is Wang Zhan Jun kicking the heavy bag.

Published on Feb 10, 2017
Wang Zhanjun TaiChi 王战军 陈式太极拳腿法实战训练:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNxoyyjXmO8

To go back to the OP:

1. Is there a difference between Wang Zhan Jun's punches, kicks or throws and Sanda's? If so, what's your reasoning. And if not, what's your reasoning.

2. Did Wang Zhan Jun have a different effect on his opponent or the heavy bag? If so, how?
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:21 pm

Here's another test of kicking power. Wang Zhangjun should be tested similarly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dO_YT1TjS0
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:34 pm

For punches, this was interesting. Start at around 5 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do4YFHNf830

Oops, the entire show is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_l-WgEQjpU
But, watch the boxing segment when the explanation for the power is "kinetic linking."
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:09 pm

I'd like people to look at this, and contrast the "venom", the commitment of both fighters and their comparable skill to the offering above Chen Tai Chi competition. Wang Zhanjun.

I see Cung Le taking a lot of punishment on his leg, and not even letting the opponent have the satisfaction of acknowledging it. I see him truly challenged and like a real fighter, learning in the process. not giving up and figuring out how to deal with his opponent. It's easy to win always, a true fighter has heart, and can withstand the storm. How many present day Tai Chi Masters have weathered the storm? been put under real pressure? and risen to the occasion?





now here's a good natured exhibition friendly between a sparing partner (Stephen Meleady) of one of my students ( Dec Gernon) and Saenchai:



Note the non-committal, yet honest session... NOONE IS BACKING OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SINGLE ATTACKS do not have an "ALWAYS" catastrophic effect on the opponent.

Now contrast to these Chinese propaganda fights... like they are not as cringeworthy as the "Masters" in the park with their chi demonstrations, there's some professionalism to them, but only a gobshite gets "pushed" from the centre of a lei tai over 4 meters off it! Just saying like!

Again, hungry fighters in CMA: (no sparing is going to introduce this "drive" to win, which from my experience is the closest one comes to the desire to survive when it matters.It's beyond belief that people who have no experience at this level of violence, will actually have the audacity to believe that their punching is at a higher level?)


and yes yes, I've been around, seen and "felt" the "double impact" slap, the "percussive" palm, the "penetrating" punch... I even heard all the tales about such being designed to overcome various iron shirt methods... and the tale is entertaining allright... where to aim, the direction, the double strike, to hit the rebounding organs and so dissipate the shield of muscle culture etc...

Some people here still believe this stuff and think it special, that only they have come across "it"....

Is a tai chi punch different? Sure you can have these tricks that work only as ambush techniques, when the pressure is off, and for sure the drill of rolling thunder develops a different way of powering the cross than western boxing which when correctly drilled uses a sliding rear step to help transfer the weight into it... there's lots of such details...
Again though, its a real risk training stuff when you don't have the experience of how and when to use it... placing a shake into a strike has its moment, and they are rare, twists are far more important and efficacious but the "masters" can't sell such not easily picked up nor "special" details.

Its interesting in this thread that those who espouse the mysterious, or the superiority of a tai chi punch never really explain its generation in any specific way, nor how and when to use it, nor give ANY video example of it applied... a conspiracy develops instead, where "assumption" that they have a "much too complicated to explain" truth overrides the need to "prove "such extraordinary claims... The evasion of reality develops from unspoken assumption to a collective defense to ignoring the "Child" or children exclaiming that the emperor has no clothes on. Its dressed up in faux-tolerance and diverted with "the bigger picture" of health and happiness, but no matter the group is guilty of not challenging such extraordinary claims and offering it a special protected place where it alone need not offer proof. Offenders of logic are allowed to "skip" uncomfortable questions with diversions and are rarely challenged. It's a lunatic's paradise.

This is all all very well, but it makes Tai Chi Chuan a laughing stock and open to the Xu's of the world to piss all over it. I love Tai Chi Chuan, I'm not entirely ignorant of other styles having many friends in the martial arts world, but for me anyway Tai Chi Chuan offers a delivery system and training package that can stand tall with the best of them. There is no need for the fallacies, lies and mystery, they have the opposite effect to the aims of those who design them...

And while unchallenged fallacy rules, meaningful discussion and so community led evolution is impossible, and this is a great harm to Tai Chi Chuan, contrasting with the likes of BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, MA etc. where communities accept only what can be proven and so can develop further without the constant Faith-based woowoo disagreements. Make an extraordinary claim in a boxing forum and just try and deflect questioning with appeals to authority and watch you and your post failing to escape criticism. The Tai chi Community (I'm not talking about RSF here) in failing to police this, only encourages a landscape where fantasy is given wings and we are where we are! Making up shit about why our punch is "Potentially" so much more powerful than any other. I say potentially, because that back door escape is ALWAYS kept open! Oh, I can't but my master can, I'm only at it 10 years you really need 25 and to have started at 3, etc...

Wang Cheng-nan is said to have stated: "Martial Arts proceed from the complex to the simple", well how much simpler is the world that we know without spirit and chi and magic?
But he also said that "people feel that the internal art lacks dazzle, and so they adulterate it with the external. for this reason the art is doomed to decline.".. now I know, he was on about acrobatic kicks probably, but anything unnecessary is really external to nei jia, its a minimalist art, where each movement used in combat holds multiple functions, simple, masterful awareness and use of the body...

The tai chi punch should be about covering as much as possible with a single expression, it should be a shield to deflect, and column to hide behind, a forearm to twist and lock, an elbow to slice and smash, an upper arm and shoulder to crash and crush and seize and hold, and all this shaped to allow an automatic flow into the useful, it should tie itself to stepping and to the body's expansion and contraction and rotation, in other words it should look like the best boxer's punch!

Leaving gaps, being singular in focus, one may well shake (or call it fajin if one likes), it is only external "Dazzle"... It may take a "connected body " to "generate" the shake, but THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE LIMB DEALS WITH ALL THE OTHER RELEVANT ISSUES, some of which I've mentioned above, and often times we see PRECISELY these FLAWS of absence. The gobbshite teaching has never countered a skillful striker who may have set him up, leading him to open his defenses chasing shadows, for that reason he focuses on "power Generation" and forgets the "yin" within the "yang".

Yet this is what many seek as truth? This "Dazzle"!

For this reason The art is doomed to decline!
The Emperor has no clothes on!
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:22 pm

I agree with most of the things you say, Niall. The above video of Wang Zhanjun is pretty embarrassing, an obvious propaganda stunt. I agree that most Taiji practitioners can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Where we disagree is that Taiji looks the same as kickboxing. Fajin is not a "dazzle". It's a totally different way of generating power. It doesn't need winding up when done properly. Unlike a boxing punch it can generate great power from any distance and it doesn't matter what part of the body is used or at what angle, so it's not as necessary to re-set for the next punch and there are more options. It can leave more openings (this is boxing's strong point), but that can be used to advantage when feinting. It's also not magical in any way. It's just issuing force into the ground (with the aid of gravity), which must return an equal force, and then redirecting it into your opponent. That's physics 101!

Just watched the clips. Good sparring, for sure - especially the first one. Not sure what it has to do with Taijiquan, though...
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:36 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:It doesn't need winding up when done properly. Unlike a boxing punch it can generate great power from any distance and it doesn't matter . . .at what angle.

It's just issuing force into the ground (with the aid of gravity), which must return an equal force, and then redirecting it into your opponent. That's physics 101!

Steve James wrote:For punches, this was interesting. Start at around 5 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do4YFHNf830

Oops, the entire show is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_l-WgEQjpU
But, watch the boxing segment when the explanation for the power is "kinetic linking."

I understand you may have problems viewing Youtube from China.

@ 7:46 of the above video, the boxer shows how to throw punches. They are thrown without "winding up." Boxing "can generate great power from any distance" too, with it's short (inside) punches. Also, there are no restrictions on angles of punching (e.g., linear, curved, 45 degrees, etc.) In the experiment, boxing was the most powerful punch, even over kung fu.

The "Fight Science" experiment also showed how boxing's punch is generated from "issuing force into the ground." As the energy travels throughout the body, it forms a kinetic chain; “A perfect flow of energy through the entire body.”

The differences, you described, actually turned out to be the same. Of course, there are differences because of the rules (e.g., no kicks, elbows, throws, grabbing, holding, etc.).
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:30 pm

A "kung fu punch"? Seriously? All punches in China are the same? WTF!

Also, this is a test of individual fighters' strength and can't be used to represent all fighters of a single style, let alone an entire continent (population-wise). I didn't see any Fajin going on, either..

A Fajin punch is very different from a boxing punch. I learned one boxing punch from my Sanda coach, who was first in China in Sanda and first in Guangxi in boxing and Shuaijiao. I'm also training with boxers now! The distance I was referring to was for a straight punch. It could be 1cm or half a metre. Doesn't matter. It's more rooted than a boxing punch. Each have advantages and disadvantages, but are nothing alike. I have a lot of respect for boxing.

I never said that boxing punches need to be wound up. That is what many claim about Fajin punches.
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:03 pm

Steve James wrote:Here's another test of kicking power. Wang Zhangjun should be tested similarly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dO_YT1TjS0


God I hated this show. When I saw the promo I thought - EXCELLENT! And then I saw it.

Like the mt round house is soooo different to a twd round house. That a good kicker really sticks to only a specific stylistic kick and can't cross over. These were the same clowns that got bas rutten to do his "mma kick".

Or the way they presented karate only has a front stomp kick and does not use a round house or even the move the capioera's version of a kick (ala tricking).

And that the power to weight in the capoiera move really matters vs a good kicker who uses all the kicks & can pull them off in the randomness of a fight.

Wonderful concept. Corny tv execution.

Oh and dont get me started on the punching one. Thats even more stupid.
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:59 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:A "kung fu punch"? Seriously? All punches in China are the same? WTF!

Also, this is a test of individual fighters' strength and can't be used to represent all fighters of a single style, let alone an entire continent (population-wise). I didn't see any Fajin going on, either..

I agree.

MaartenSFS wrote:A Fajin punch is very different from a boxing punch. I learned one boxing punch from my Sanda coach, who was first in China in Sanda and first in Guangxi in boxing and Shuaijiao. I'm also training with boxers now! The distance I was referring to was for a straight punch. It could be 1cm or half a metre. Doesn't matter. It's more rooted than a boxing punch. Each have advantages and disadvantages, but are nothing alike. I have a lot of respect for boxing.

I only commented on the Fajin punch definition you posted, earlier. Not on what you are describing, now.

It's easier to discuss using the boxing punch in the MMA venue. Since, there are no rule restrictions. MMA is not limited to the boxing punch. As by definition, it includes many martial arts. So, there are many types of punches with various ways of generating power.

You may have a punch that MMA has never seen, yet. However, I assume MMA knows of numerous types of punches including, Piqua, Baji, etc. Since, MMA is practiced all over the world, including China. Some punches may be known, but not used for their lack of economy, speed, or vulnerability in defense, etc.

Practicing CMA with boxers is limited in it's usefulness. Because, boxers are used to fighting under restricted rules and in their own range (distance) with punches only (no kicks, throws, knee's etc.) Practicing with MMA or Sanda players would be closer to a real fight.

Edit: I went off topic from the Sanda punch, by introducing MMA punches. You can ignore that part, if you want.

MaartenSFS wrote:I never said that boxing punches need to be wound up. That is what many claim about Fajin punches.

Then, I misunderstood.
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:41 am

No worries..

Regarding training with boxers versus other styles.. Beggars can't be choosers... There's not many willing to fight up here in Chinese Siberia...

I doubt even MMA practitioners in China have seen much real TCMA. The crowds don't mix..
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:37 am

The show is hokey. The comparative measurements of power are irrelevant because of variance among the subjects. A more precise method would use the same subject doing the various types of strikes (or punches). That would be impractical because the different types of strikes aren't only mechanical, and require hours of neuro muscular conditioning to be perfected. And, there's also the question of individual intent, which can either increase or reduce the power of a strike. (I am talking about emotional content or spirit, but not about qi or any mysterious force).

Comparing the power output of kung fu to boxing using individuals of different sizes is of course silly. But, they could have had the kung fu guy try to use more than one type of strike. The same goes for the boxer, too. I'd bet that Tyson's uppercut would be more powerful for many reasons, including kinetic linking or "connection".

The results of the tests are irrelevant. So what, if "x" style produced more power doing the test. All that's needed is "enough," not more than or the most. There's no reason not to want to refine and increase one's power production. Imo, studying other techniques can even help one understand one's own.

Anyway, I think the best punch uses the least energy efficiently to produce the most power. So, if someone weighs 120 lbs, what method allows him to produce the amount of force to knock someone out or injure him. Unfortunately, figuring all that out is pure theory. Almost anyone can knock someone out --if the other doesn't see it comin' ;) If he does, it gets a lot harder.
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Re: Tai Chi punch

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:20 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8uESHHCgGw

good clip, talks about any point hit should be able to hurt...in taiji it is said any point touched it should be bleed.
One thing he mentions is range, stepping and recovery from being hit....

CMA deals with and has dealt with the same issues using a verity of strategies.

the OP

1. Is there a difference between a good Sanda punch and a good Tai Chi punch? If so, what's your reasoning. And if not, what's your reasoning.
IME the differences are the method used to generate and type of power


2. If you've been on the receiving end of punches from different styles (say, in competition or sparring) - did they feel different? If so, how?

Depending on style for example in S-mantis they use phoenix eye fist or dragon fist, point strikes, in taiji depending on level of practitioner the movement used is felt more inside not much compression on the out side. They have what is called "cold jin" which is normal not something used nor really practiced with as the effects aimed at inner organs. Have used whats called burning palm in my younger days, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26046 on people I've met with the same effects noted. .

example of a different way of expression

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