Tai Chi punch

[C.J.W.]

Interesting my taiji bother met with George Xu a while back.
He felt that my taiji bothers skill was higher then his own.....

Perhaps he was referring to Taiji skills. Like I said, he's not really a Taiji guy.

[MaartenSFS]

I'd expect a Taiji punch to show some form of Fajin in their strikes. I've met all sorts of Taijiquan practitioners (and BGZ, XYQ, XYLHQ etc.) and there are various methods. The power generation is quite different from boxing or Sanda. It shouldn't take an hour to wind up either, but be as quick as a normal punch.

For the record, I can't feel my Qi either.. To me, Neigong training is about learning to sink your weight and use full-body power, amongst other things.

[BruceP]

I guess Yang lu Chan, yang ban huo, the lad tai chi got its name from and his son both named "the invincible" got it wrong then?

Personal Combat is a completely different paradigm. Those "lads" weren't training the people I've worked with, were they?

[windwalker]

not on topic:

Interesting my taiji bother met with George Xu a while back.
He felt that my taiji bothers skill was higher then his own.....

Perhaps he was referring to Taiji skills. Like I said, he's not really a Taiji guy.

are you sure?

What is Tai Chi, Really? George Xu Answers

https://www.susanamatthews.com/taichi-secrets.htm


He liked my taiji bother Zhao, and felt his skill level was quite high..
Zhao, liked to engage with people while he was here, and continues to do so in Beijing...

Zhao attracts players from all other styles as well as beginners with little or no prior training. At 52, he does no exercise or even forms. He just pushes hands with anyone and everyone who comes by. I have seen men in their prime, twenty years younger than Zhao and twice his weight, with years and years of formal training go rolling off with big grins on their faces.

http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/sanfr ... OSHUN.html

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[MaartenSFS]

How is that not talking down to others?

[johnwang]

How is that not talking down to others?

- Taiji is good. Shaolin is bad.
- "Internal" is good. External is bad.
- "Push" is good. "Punch" is bad.
- Be able to feel Qi is good, very good. Not be able to feel Qi is bad, very bad.
- ...

If you don't believe in Qi, nobody will care about your opinion. Why are you still hanging around here?

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[Bao]

I'd expect a Taiji punch to show some form of Fajin in their strikes. I've met all sorts of Taijiquan practitioners (and BGZ, XYQ, XYLHQ etc.) and there are various methods. The power generation is quite different from boxing or Sanda. It shouldn't take an hour to wind up either, but be as quick as a normal punch.

Why do you think fajin needs to be shown? IME, the strongest looking punches are mostly the weakest. The strongest punches mostly looks like nothing.

Fajin doesn't need to be shown to be there. Fajin doesn't need to be about expressively shaking your body. Fajin means to release energy/Jin. Storing and releasing don't need to be externally showed at all.

For the record, I can't feel my Qi either.. To me, Neigong training is about learning to sink your weight and use full-body power, amongst other things.

For anyone who don't spend the very most of their practice on developing body awareness, I believe that it would be very hard to learn how to feel anything close to something you could call Qi. Then, if you develop awareness about what happens in your body, internal movement, what you call and don't call Qi should become quite meaningless.

That's Shaolin.

What do you mean?

[everything]

The problem is people don't need to work on qigong aspects to be "fighters".

Further, doing qigong doesn't make one a "fighter".

So perhaps one misses out or claims everyone else is lost pursuing a fairy tale (perhaps that is sometimes true for certain people who are looking for who knows what) or doesn't understand scientific lack of data doesn't prove non existence of phenomenon.

Best case, it's difficult to discuss even on an IMA board.

It doesn't matter really; it's just too bad.

[Subitai]

The whole debate is rather silly. If you hit with the right knuckle and a single straight vector from knuckle through hand and armbone to elbow it doesn't matter whether you have a closed fist or an open one. If you don't, you will break your hand. A closed fist will not prevent that injury at all. That's why boxers have the gloves. Because a fist does not protect your hand. What a closed fist allows is for easier stabilization of the hook.

"IF" ...is the key word in this entire line of thinking. IF this or if that...I might also be iffy and walk down the street risking getting hit by a car. Too many variables bro...but more can be negated if you punch with a properly trained (tightened fist) on impact. I disagree with you in so much as a tight fist can afford SOME protection...it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing at all.
To be CLEAR: I'm talking about if you're punching completely bare handed. NO Wraps, no gloves....NADA.

It's not a silly debate, you guys can talk about internals, body connection and yada yada yada ...but:
1st, the punch has to make contact.
2nd, Taiji punch is NOT only the contact from the traditional forward / front of the fist. There is Back Fist, Down punch, punch(box) the ears, Punch from underneath in 7 stars, ect. ect. So like it or not the fist maybe contacted on different parts of the hand.

A saying in Shaolin is "punch as if your fist is a stone tied to a rope (or string)"

The implications of that is not just about the fist, it's obliviously deeper than that.

While I'm at it...I'll forward to what I read so far at the end of this thread... Wow some people down on Shaolin eh?

You know, if you think about Shaolin, Wu dang and Chen Village, all being in the same area (as within driving distance)...To me it's kinda like whoever invented the Wheel or Fire. Somebody was going to invent it ....meaning nobody has a monopoly on Internal or chi development. Considering that over 1500 yrs, the vast wealth of knowledge that had been transmitted before and after multiple burnings / destructions...I find the belittling comments about Shaolin personally laughable.

Never mind Shaolin in it's current state...with wushu monks and the government placing it's own NON ordained abbot in charge. It doesn't take away the history or skills inherited by families and spread abroad. In an era Post "MAO"...you often heard that if you wanted to really learn CMA for fighting, you had to look outside of China.

Lastly this comment cracks me up

Sinking your weight and rooting and using whole body power are hallmarks of any basic Shaolin style. It's nothing special. If that is neigong then how is (tai chi) different?

Why would anyone think that is the extent of shaolin's "neigong" ...as in = Inner/internal skill or strength?

[MaartenSFS]

What I meant by shown is the effect of it, not as a big, obvious movement itself. There are types of Fajin that are more or less obvious than others, aesthetically. Getting hit was a normal punch or Fajin can be totally different. It does a different type of damage.

No, using full-body power is not something that I commonly see in any styles, "internal" or not, including Fajin.

I totally agree that none of these styles has a monopoly on Neigong. Not even close. The most "internal" style I've seen was an ex-special forces guy that spent about four hours running through his family style of Meihuaquan form once. We totally forgot he was there, like a tree. He had incredible power and stability, but never wanted to work with anyone or teach after retiring - some form of penance.

Taiji is unique in the way that it develops Tingjin (listening power). That doesn't manifest itself so obviously in striking, though. Bagua and Xinyi develop Tingjin to an extent as well, as does Yongchun (Wingchun). They all have various (though not separated by styles, more by different practitioners), but ultimately similar ways of Fajin. The question was "What would you look for in a Taiji punch?”， not "What is Taijiquan?" or "Can you feel your Qi?". In striking these arts would all look similar, with the biggest difference being in footwork. The rules for structure are pretty much identical.

[johnwang]

Fajin doesn't need to be shown to be there.

Many years ago, I met a Taiji instructor. I asked him to punch me as hard as he could on my chest. He refused. I then asked him to punch as hard as he could on my shoulder. He still refused. I do believe I can take a full powerful punch on my shoulder even today. One day when I will have chance to meet our RSF members, I would like to ask you guys to punch on my shoulder with your 100% Taiji power (not XingYi, Bagus, long fist, Baji, ...) so I can feel.

Have you ever tried to punch on your training partner's shoulder with all the power that you can generate? It's a lot of fun.

[Steve James]

This entire argument is based on talking down to others. TCC people rarely say that other arts are equal in any sense. Other arts usually say that tcc is not equal to theirs. That includes all the internals and certainly all the "externals." The distinction is irrelevant in sport fighting or combat.

Actually, the argument was made that tcc punches are based on the "fact" that the practitioners were armored. This presumes, of course, that tcc people made up a part of the Chinese armed forces at any time in history. If true, there should be some historical evidence. It'd be nice to see. Even if one traces tcc back to General Q's manual, the illustrations .... Well, it would be interesting to hear how they support the thesis. Here's a translation of Qi Jiguan's manual http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a268051.pdf
Note particularly, the translator's introduction to Chapter 14:

Chapter 14, the "Quanjing Jieyao Pian" (Chapter on the Fist Canon and the Essentials of Nimbleness), endorses
unarmed combat exercises as physical training for troops. No literary precedent for such a work has been discovered.
Historical evidence suggests, however, that pre-Ming armies have used some forms of martial arts in training or
demonstrations. Also, similarities between the "Quanjing" and modern taijiquan raise questions about a possible
common martial arts heritage.

Ok, let's suppose that his army used a proto-form of tcc on the battlefield. There are illustrations of the exercises, but here's an illustration.

And, here's an illustration of his proposed tactics.


Anyway, ya'll can decide about the armor part or what would change tactically if done by troops trained in xingyi (ok, little joke there).

Afa why I use boxing examples, well, I also use examples/problems from muay thai, and sometimes even reference catch wrestling. Why introduce concepts and examples from those systems? Why not just do those arts? Why post about them on RSF? The answer is personal. I've practiced tcc for 45 years. But, I studiously refrain from criticizing anyone else's or tell them what tcc is supposed to be. It's theirs. It's the vehicle they've chosen to express themselves. Good enough for me.

In that time, I've met and practiced with guys who've studied other arts previously. I've found that some of their techniques were effective and useful. And, after all, I've been practicing mas in order to save my ass and protect my family. Other than that, it's just exercise --which, in fact, might be a better reason to study, and why most tcc practitioners do.

It's simply the fact that the majority of people who practice tcc aren't interested in fighting, though they might also get some good techniques for self defense. They, however, should not be compared to people who spend their time with the goal of using the art for combat sports. I'll bet that about the same ratio for soldiers or leos in comparison to civilians. But, as I said, to each his own.

Tcc practitioners are criticized unnecessarily, and tend to get defensive whenever that happens. In my real non-virtual life, and someone says that he can kick my ass, I might do lots of things. And, I'd say my tcc practice would probably be most evident in my reactions. Frankly, I wouldn't give a f__k. But, I wouldn't tell him about what my master could do, or cite a syllabus.