Tai Chi punch

[Steve James]

Well, I know lots of people who study Yang tcc and have striking drills. There's a class called Fighting 1 where they practice punches and kicks. Btw, I don't think there is one tcc punch. It's just a strike using a closed fist. You could also ask about the tcc chop or palm or kick.

[johnwang]

I don't think there is one tcc punch.

I don't think Yang Taiji has punch as:

- long fist back reverse punch, or
- boxing cross punch.

We all know that jab may not be a knock down punch. but cross can. If you train straight punch, you have to train "cross".

[Bao]

I don't think there is one tcc punch. It's just a strike using a closed fist.

Is it? How would you describe a good strike using a closed fist?

[wayne hansen]

Those who can't find every punch in boxing in the tai chi form aren't qualified to talk on either subject
Look in the section after turn round chop with fist
The San shou holds many other variations

[marvin8]

Those who can't find every punch in boxing in the tai chi form aren't qualified to talk on either subject
Look in the section after turn round chop with fist
The San shou holds many other variations

@ 5:03

Published on Feb 11, 2013
Master Yang Jun explains movements in the second section: Turn Body Chop with Fist, the transition into Parry Block and Punch, and the transition into Grasp the Bird's Tail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p5YQyd4DOg

[robert]

Taiji is about how you move, how you generate power, not a set of techniques. A taiji fighter should follow the principles - one part of the body moves, the whle body moves, and that requires that you are relaxed, but does it impose other constraints? Taiji should adapt to the situation.

Here are a couple of videos - the guys in the black pants trained in Chen taiji and are or were instructors at Chen Xiaoxing's school. Here they are competing with some muay thai guys following rules that are basically muay thai. They spent six months or a year training according to muay thai rules prior to the fights.

Wang Jinhu


Wang Yan


The physics for a punch are set so given the same application/situation I would suspect that punches from various styles would evolve to be fairly similar.

[marvin8]

Taiji is about how you move, how you generate power, not a set of techniques. A taiji fighter should follow the principles - one part of the body moves, the whle body moves, and that requires that you are relaxed, but does it impose other constraints? Taiji should adapt to the situation.

Here are a couple of videos - the guys in the black pants trained in Chen taiji and are or were instructors at Chen Xiaoxing's school. Here they are competing with some muay thai guys following rules that are basically muay thai. They spent six months or a year training according to muay thai rules prior to the fights.

Wang Jinhu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73gR-QtgvDM

Wang Yan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlZhdSuuEZ0

Do you believe this taiji shenfa has been displayed in the push hands competitions, tai chi combat competitions, or sparring, that we have seen?

Which goes back to the OP:

I'm interested in what you think.

1. Is there a difference between a good Sanda punch and a good Tai Chi punch? If so, what's your reasoning. And if not, what's your reasoning.

2. If you've been on the receiving end of punches from different styles (say, in competition or sparring) - did they feel different? If so, how?

1. Are Jinhu and Yan doing Tai Chi or Sanda? Is there a difference in their punches?

2. Did JInhu and Yan have a different effect on their opponents?

[Steve Rowe]

By punch I presume you mean a fist strike. All my Tai Chi 'punches' are curves. Ma Lee Yang describes the fa geng as 'like a pinball' so the pulse from the feet through the core would have a pinball effect on impact on that part of the curve. Also we never just punch it would be a part of a sequence like in 'deflect and punch' one hand pulls the head forwards and down whilst the other punches in a curve upwards. In 'fist under elbow the punching arm cuts through the opponents arm before the punch whilst the other hand presses through the collarbone on the other side destroying the structure in preperation for the strike.

[Steve Rowe]

Some 'punches' cut down through the eye and the bridge of the nose with the finger joints like in the prelude to 'parry down', some use a backfist from the wrist like in 'yin/yang fist' in the Long Boxing we have a dropping fist in 'Fair Lady Plays Shuttles' so we have a range of fist strikes on curves with pulses.

[johnwang]

Is Taiji

- brush knee twist step, or
- fair lady works on shuttle, or
- step out, deflect, grab, and punch

a boxing "cross"?

I have add Taiji "brush knee twist step" into my daily training. IMO, it's completely different from the long fist back hand reverse punch, or boxing "cross".

A long fist punch will require your fist start to twist from your waist all the way and reach to your opponent's body. As far as I know, Taiji punch doesn't have this kind of twisting.

[Steve James]

A hammerfist is a strike with closed hand that's not a punch. But I was just interested why the question was limited to punches.

Afa as the Chen tcc vs Muay Thai, if one wasn't told before, I don't think anyone would say that it was Chen, Wu, or Yang. But, clearly he was using Muay Thai techniques. Watch the stepping. There's a reason.

[C.J.W.]

It's not Taiji punch, it's not boxing punch, it's your punch. After you have developed your skill, the term "style" will have little meaning. If you have cross trained Taiji, Baji, white crane, ..., when you throw a punch, you won't know what kind of punch you are throwing.

I have seen people integrate the white crane punch into Yang Taiji. I have also seen people integrated Baji punch into Yang Taiji. So which style should get the credit? Taiji, white crane, or Baji?

All students graduated from the Chinese Central MA Institute would need to train many different CMA styles. None of those students could say that they throw a 100% Taiji punch.

Blending together striking methods from various styles to create your own is fine, but I don't necessarily agree with the idea that "once you've crossed trained, you won't know what kind of punch you are throwing."

Prior to developing an effective blend, you should have already mastered and understood the body mechanics of the styles that you are borrowing from. That means you should also be able to explain and demonstrate to people what specific pieces you have taken from certain styles, and how those pieces add up to create a superior striking method that is better suited for you.

If a cross-trainer doesn't know exactly how his punch works, chances are it's probably sloppy. (And let's face it, there are actually some styles that simply do not blend well.) I believe Adam Hsu has also written at length about the danger of too much mindless cross-training, and advised CMAists to focus just on one or two main styles in order to reach higher skill levels.

[robert]

Afa as the Chen tcc vs Muay Thai, if one wasn't told before, I don't think anyone would say that it was Chen, Wu, or Yang. But, clearly he was using Muay Thai techniques. Watch the stepping. There's a reason.

I agree that what they are doing is Muay Thai. I'm curious about your comment on the stepping. What's different between the Muay Thai stepping and this?

[marvin8]

By punch I presume you mean a fist strike. All my Tai Chi 'punches' are curves. Ma Lee Yang describes the fa geng as 'like a pinball' so the pulse from the feet through the core would have a pinball effect on impact on that part of the curve. Also we never just punch it would be a part of a sequence like in 'deflect and punch' one hand pulls the head forwards and down whilst the other punches in a curve upwards. In 'fist under elbow the punching arm cuts through the opponents arm before the punch whilst the other hand presses through the collarbone on the other side destroying the structure in preperation for the strike.

Thanks. I enjoy reading about different taiji strategies and timing. I believe this strategy may be touched upon in the following excerpt:

Jing’s Substantial Insubstantial

. . . To attack where opponent is strong is called “mutual resistance.” This is inefficient, and contrary to taiji principles. You must train so that you automatically meet the opponent’s substantial (attacking) jing with and insubstantial (defensive) jing. As you defend, you may simultaneously counter or set yourself and your opponent up for your counterattack.

Offensively, attack where the opponent is weak. This does not mean where he is insubstantial because you would be falling into a trap. Instead, attack when he is switching from a substantial jing to an insubstantial, or vice versa. If you catch him just before he emits an offensive jing, you will be able to succeed.

Substantial and insubstantial jing are determined by your yi (mind). When you sense the opponent’s intention, your yi can change your actions from substantial to insubstantial, and vice versa. To facilitate this, do not emit all your energy. Rather, conserve some so that you can easily switch from one technique to another. . . .

[C.J.W.]

My take on what makes a punch Taiji is very simple: the puncher's movements must embody Taiji principles -- especially the separation of Yin and Yang. If clear separation of Yin and Yang is not observed in various parts of the body when a punch is thrown, it ain't Taiji.