Tai Chi punch

[johnwang]

I was told George Xu used be quite a scrapper in his younger days, and once knocked 3 teeth out of a guy in a challenge match. But Taiji is not his main style. His fighting prowess comes from Lanshou and Xinyiliuhe.

When my teacher passed through California, he met George Xu. Since my teacher said a lot of good things about Xu, it got me excited. I told my teacher that next time he went back to Taiwan and passed through California, I wanted to be with him so I could test my skill against Xu's skill. My teacher then said, "You will need to prepare before you go." I then know Xu was good. I finally didn't go. That was 35 years ago.

[windwalker]

I was told George Xu used be quite a scrapper in his younger days, and once knocked 3 teeth out of a guy in a challenge match. But Taiji is not his main style. His fighting prowess comes from Lanshou and Xinyiliuhe.

When my teacher passed through California, he met George Xu. Since my teacher said a lot of good things about Xu, it got me excited. I told my teacher that next time he went back to Taiwan and passed through California, I wanted to be with him so I could test my skill against Xu's skill. My teacher then said, "You will need to prepare before you go." I then know Xu was good. I finally didn't go. That was 35 years ago.

Interesting my taiji bother met with George Xu a while back.
He felt that my taiji bothers skill was higher then his own.....

[robert]

1. Is there a difference in Wang Zhan Jun's punches, kicks or throws?

I don't think you can answer that outside of a sports lab. Taiji, xingyi, and bagua use neijin (they should) which is a specific way of moving the body - I can't say if someone else is using that method of not, especially in a fight, it tends to be more apparent in forms and demos. I think it's important to remember that the physics are set.



http://boxingscience.co.uk/science-behind-punch/

Whether or not a fighter is using neijin all fighters are working with a human body that follows the laws of physics. How much force a punch delivers can be measured in a lab.

2. Did Wang Zhan Jun have a different effect on his opponent?

The end result is not different. If someone has taken hard punches to the head from boxers/sanda/taiji/xingyi/bagua maybe they can comment.

[Steve James]

If this thread is about punching, is a boxing punch good enough? Is it necessary to have more power?

[califax]

If this thread is about punching, is a boxing punch good enough? Is it necessary to have more power?

Are you curious how the TJQ mechanics play out in a punch? Or what happens if the punch isn't a punch at all, but rather an aggressive wrestling move or an armed attack?
Cause if you're already good at western boxing I can't see any other reason why to bother.

[Steve James]

I'm not sure everyone agrees that the effect of the various punches are similar. I'm asking why there would be an advantage to prefer using tcc mechanics over any other method if either is sufficient. I agree that power can measured. It's been done with other arts. They're on YouTube. My basic question is why this is an issue.

[Bao]

, is a boxing punch good enough?

Yes

Is it necessary to have more power?

No

.... Tai Chi punching is a consequence of using tai chi body methods. Boxing punching is the consequence of boxing body methods. If you don't care about Tai Chi methods, why do bother about the RSF? Seems like you are more into boxing.

[BruceP]

I am not sure what you mean by nine temple chi Kung
Is there a clip of it out there

Nine Temple Chi Kung:
Picking Fruit followed by shoulder-rolls
Arm Swings
Knee and Hip Rotations
Leg Swings
Foot Bounce
Grind Corn
Polish Mirror
Advance-Retreat
Prayer Wheel

I watched some clips last night, but what they show is quite different from the way we practice them in terms of posture, range-of-motion and continuity.

The Nine Temple routine develops the same attributes of Thirteen Torso Methods that tai chi form is supposed to develop. We train Thirteen Torso Methods with stepping using a variation of the A-skip. It offers simple, direct access to exploring/understanding the fightiness of tai chi chuan's principles and methods in a very short period of time.

I am sure there are various versions of each boxing punch out there but there are mechanical principles that govern each one and variations are just how people deliver each

On paper, maybe. But in reality everyone brings a mechanical framework that drifts free of 'mechanical principles' based on body-type. Long/short arms & legs, long/short spine, leg-to-back length, overall height, shoulder-width as a component of overall reach, etc. A boxer's physical dimensions dictate their operable range, and all of their punches, footwork, distancing, timing and power generation are predicated off of it when they spar. Bagwork develops the attributes and allows them to understand their operable range instinctively/innately.

Due, in large part to body-type, variations of the basic punches aren't developed through preference, but necessity.

[wayne hansen]

The thing about measuring the power of a punch is a bit like dim mak
I can teach anyone dim mak in half an hour but being able to apply it in combat is a whole different thing.
Power is the brother of distance and timing.
Wait for someone to go to sleek get a baseball bat and go to town
In that situation power is not the prime concern
It is like the old dan innosanto one
What would you rather have a knife or a bazooka
What if you are in a phone box
I know what you mean by nine palace now
You must be doing a lot of other work because it is a pretty rudimentary set of exercises

[califax]

I'm not sure everyone agrees that the effect of the various punches are similar. I'm asking why there would be an advantage to prefer using tcc mechanics over any other method if either is sufficient. I agree that power can measured. It's been done with other arts. They're on YouTube. My basic question is why this is an issue.

If you are moving in the "TJQ system" it's just simpler to punch in this system instead of learning another way of moving for your strikes. Also, TJQ is a historic combat school for armed close quarter combat with armor. That means, a traditional punching move in TJQ has probably other applications than a punch in western boxing. I already had a nice surprise with karate. There was that seemingly flowery unrealistic punch that everybody hated, because it was shit compared to western boxing.
Well, on a seminar it turned out that "punch" was a very effective throw that rams the opponent head first into the ground. And it wasn't a unicorn, a lot of fighting systems both modern and traditional know that throw.
Back to TJQ: It's not boxing. The movements of the form alone should give you that hint. It's stand-up grappling with blades and possibly armored opponents. It's a surprisingly simple system with very few movements for a lot of standard infantry weapons of those times, as soon as one accepts the mechanics instead of trying to fit in kickboxing and score fighting.

[Niall Keane]

Wow so you really can't feel your chi? You mean you really have no idea about chi circulation at all?

What kind of neigong do you do then? If you don't know anything about chi circulation what precisely are you doing? I don't mind talking about qi circulation, after all we are all neijia here, aren't we? I mean, if you want to talk about how it is more than just forms and qigong and push hands I'd be really interested in understanding where you are coming from. As someone who knows three distinct styles of Taijiquan I thought I had things pretty well figured out, but this is new stuff to me. What am I missing, then?

Chi in tcc classics refers to either vital essence I.e. breath etc. Or the flow of yin and yang opposites.... lower body upper body, left right, forward back, yinside o limb yang side of limb etc.etc..
it never refers to a mysterious energy that travels around meridians.. meridians at never mentioned. Acupoints get some mention in the 40 songs of yang/ wu but we can take this as pre medical science understandings.

Nei gung and the flow of contiuous power as we recover trough issue or counter is real and nothing unscientific... it's about knowing how to use one's body and not leave gaps to be exploited. All martially and scientifically sound. .

So.. I've shown mine despite your diversion... please demonstrate your magic chi and it's effects? (On non-believers)

See I can accept it as a useful "model", but I'll leave the mediclorians to Lucas.

[marvin8]

I'm not sure everyone agrees that the effect of the various punches are similar. I'm asking why there would be an advantage to prefer using tcc mechanics over any other method if either is sufficient. I agree that power can measured. It's been done with other arts. They're on YouTube. My basic question is why this is an issue.

One "advantage" may be that a tai chi punch is designed to be used in a sequence or simultaneously with a defensive or control move. "One hand pulls the head forwards and down whilst the other punches in a curve upwards:"

Also we never just punch it would be a part of a sequence like in 'deflect and punch' one hand pulls the head forwards and down whilst the other punches in a curve upwards. In 'fist under elbow the punching arm cuts through the opponents arm before the punch whilst the other hand presses through the collarbone on the other side destroying the structure in preperation for the strike.

Not to say that a boxing punch isn't used in a similar combination (e.g., punch, head control, uppercut), excluding throws.

[everything]

There are the stories of the feeling and damage afterwards, but just to be clear, no one here is claiming they've felt that effect or even anything unusual.

[BruceP]

I'm asking why there would be an advantage to prefer using tcc mechanics over any other method if either is sufficient. My basic question is why this is an issue.

Speaking only from my own understanding, TCC lends itself quite well to the exploration of one's Personal Combat as it requires no sportive element in the training, or the proofing, to be fighty. Its principles and methods can be trained with a mind/intent which isn't common in other arts. In fact, the absence of sportive training is a positive rather than a detriment to one's development of its basic fighting method by virtue of its practitioners' adherence to Neutrality Principle.

With the absence of the mentality, "I train to win", the whole of the training isn't encumbered by all the baggage that gets created through that kind of thinking.

Exploration follows need rather than want or desire, and a free and easy approach can be fully applied to understanding the nature of conflict and the role one plays in different levels and types of conflict. I've already written too much, maybe, about that idea on this board over the years, but it raises the same question in my mind whenever this kind of discussion gets going;...

[Niall Keane]

Speaking only from my own understanding, TCC lends itself quite well to the exploration of one's Personal Combat as it requires no sportive element in the training, or the proofing, to be fighty. Its principles and methods can be trained with a mind/intent which isn't common in other arts. In fact, the absence of sportive training is a positive rather than a detriment to one's development of its basic fighting method by virtue of its practitioners' adherence to Neutrality Principle.

I guess Yang lu Chan, yang ban huo, the lad tai chi got its name from and his son both named "the invincible" got it wrong then?