Tai Chi punch

[Bao]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iAdpGkFRzQo

I know, all those people from the Chen Family and the Yang Family and the Sun and George Xu and Ji Jian Cheng and Li Deyin and etc etc, If only I had found that secret, hidden Taiji master that only a couple of people here know of

Here William Chen demonstrate tai chi punching:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iAdpGkFRzQo

He is no secret Daoist master. Instead, he travels around and what he does in seminars is that he teach different ways of using Tai Chi mechanics in different practical ways, how to use and practice them. There are a whole bunch maybe lesser known people who does the same.

I know people who practiced with wudang "masters". They speak pretty, moves pretty. But as soon you touch hands with them, they turn stiff as dry wood.

Do you think those are effective punches? I never met wudang "masters". Do you mean the Wudang Taiji people? I met Dan Docherty a couple of times but didn't train with him

Doesn't look like much? Hard to believe there is something to it because it doesn't look strong?
It's not about believing, it's about what I know. One of William Chen's students has the strongest punch I've ever felt. It hurts very good even through a sturdy kicking protection and just like this it looks like nothing. I use and teach the same methods and similar as well.

Wudang? Dan is not someone who calls himself secre Taoist master. At the Wudang there are a few, very commercial though.

[RobP3]

Doesn't look like much? Hard to believe there is something to it because it doesn't look strong?
It's not about believing, it's about what I know. One of William Chen's students has the strongest punch I've ever felt. It hurts very good even through a sturdy kicking protection and just like this it looks like nothing. I use and teach the same methods and similar as well.

Yes, I am familiar with that concept I don't particularly see it in that demo that's all. I have felt it on numerous occasions, just not from Taiji people - but that's probably my fault

[Niall Keane]

When people expect a punch to be the province of a signal martial art and so arrogantly believe that none of the other 6 billion human monkeys on the planet know how to generate powerful and efficient striking, when they carry notions of "taichi bodies" as opposed to human bodies, and had that their voodoo has magical ways of movement that the sports scietists with all the twentyfirst century scanning equipment, computer programmes and scientific method have missed ... i automatically recall those who believe reptiles disguised as humans live among us....

Is this your confession? You sound like someone who can't feel their chi...

Appleman, there's alot of money to be earned that if your not interested in can be put to good causes should you be able to prove jedi chi is anything other than pure imagination.
do it for the kids pal! Be a hero!

[Trick]

This all comes down to incomplete systems again... health orientated tai chi boxercise V Tai chi boxing.

There are plenty of training drills for punching...
rolling thunder requires 20 mins a day win weights in hands and a minimum of 180 punches a minute... followers by same on pads for 3 x 3 min rounds (times btw just like in nei gung posture holding approximate chanting of classics... not commonly practiced anymore)

Gyrating arms, five element fist, flying flower Palm, tai chi sanshou methods also explicitly train punching. Tui shou method jow lu (not dalu) eplicitly trains fluid combos based on opponents moves and opening .

As for twisting ... Rollin thunder always twists.. two ways from the start much like the form moves punch down and punch the groin and also had at the end which coorelates with modern sports science about A - tearing the opponent and also B the twist at the end causes the body in entirety to snap together and hit him with full maximum force.


But... people will no doubt persist in the belief that a short form and long form and less than half a dozen compliant tuishou drills make up the entire system. Such health orientated exercises are good for the old and infirm the techniques stripped from the tuishou (all tuishou drills have associated techniques to be trained with them, so progres goes from beginner win no techniques learnin the shape of the drill to techniques added and finally resistance added... as is the norm for functional martial art globally!)

The fact is that tai chi chuan has and continues to produce fighters - proven since Lu Chan's time in combat sports. What are leitai challenge matches but combat sport? What are combat sports but The traditional method for martial arts to test and develop safely?

The system obviously contains enough training drills to produce top level fighters. It's kind of pathetic when people blame the educational system as a whole instead of a bad teacher... of course , perhaps the system is at fault for failing to self correct? one could rightly argue who polices the police? The major families set themselves up as guardians, and almost without exception they corrupted and watered down their styles. They rejected evolution of a fighting style in favour of what appealed to the lowest common denomiator of the "for health" market.

Well capitalists will tell you that their great god - the market corrects itself.

And now we have China itself waking up and questioning the bullshit...

When people expect a punch to be the province of a signal martial art and so arrogantly believe that none of the other 6 billion human monkeys on the planet know how to generate powerful and efficient striking, when they carry notions of "taichi bodies" as opposed to human bodies, and that their voodoo has magical ways of movement that the sports scietists with all the twentyfirst century scanning equipment, computer programmes and scientific method have missed ... i automatically recall those who believe reptiles disguised as humans live among us....

is there focus on nei gung and flow of efficient power? Of course, but a punch is a fairly simple thing, and recovery is more about the shape entering and leaving and what is being considered and not on how it feels to be hit nor any type of special power. and someone somewhere in some style has the exact same trick ... yes there are tales of 5 step exploding heart technique and they belong in th movies as entertainment. As if some pyjamas wearing old man in a park has a more devastating punch than Mike Tyson?

What's unique about tai chi is it's training sylabus and regime...
if someone has done the work and the drills then their punch is a tai chi punch ... it cannot be otherwise.. it can be a poor or excellent example that is all.
If someone has only forms and then invents their own bag drills to isolate and train a punch from that form ... then this is personal interpretation , their own style entirely ... merely "based upon" tai chi chuan.

If a "famous master" is also a tcm "doctor" and decides to use acupoints to describe all, then this again is personal interpretation, an evolutionary offshoot, not core curriculum. If people like to use a model to help students "feel" the correct way these lies to children do not become real and so all talk of dantien should be considered such, and not as is often arrogantly proposed superior to western boxing .
the model may be better for some people, but neither dantien not maredians exist not any Jedi chi ... if it cannot be detected then it cannot have an effect, we already know how the body moves.

Rollingbthunder suffers from wing chuns chain punching... Rollin thunder seeks to arch and deflect any counters as it goes in, it differs so from many a boxer's jab and cross... but not from great boxers who also seek minimalism... doing as much s possible in each movement.
But it won't send in a ball of energy that explores seconds later disrupting non existent Jedi chi. If a shake (fajin) I incorporated it won't do any more than a bixers snapping twist...

Down in the park when the snakeoil same man tells you to get ready and demonsrates his zero inch fajin you've been set up... the pleasantness of conversation has already disarmed your preparedness... the zero inch equals zero time and that explosion you feel is the same as boxers feel when "caught bad" by a body shot ...

Thing is park boy probably can't pull it off where it counts!

Almost daily for 12 years i go down to the park to practise, never met those snakeoil park boys, once a hooker offered her service there in the park 6 o'clock in the morning.... I declined

[Patrick]

A strike without a whole body push quality is just a normal strike. When executed with speed it feels a bit like a car crash (*exaggeration for a better mental image*). Disadvantage although is less reach and your whole body mass is committed.

[Steve James]

Wing Chun is famous for its vertical, non twist punch.

[amor]

A strike without a whole body push quality is just a normal strike. When executed with speed it feels a bit like a car crash (*exaggeration for a better mental image*). Disadvantage although is less reach and your whole body mass is committed.

Have to agree with you one disadvantage about the 'taichi punch' is that you do punch with 'whole body' so it means you need to be well connected and your only as strong as the weakest link. Also reach does get a little less and it sort of becomes the norm to get in close. But these initial disadvantage probably are only for beginners I would imagine.

[Appledog]

Hello! I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here.

[Bao]

A strike without a whole body push quality is just a normal strike. When executed with speed it feels a bit like a car crash (*exaggeration for a better mental image*). Disadvantage although is less reach and your whole body mass is committed.

Have to agree with you one disadvantage about the 'taichi punch' is that you do punch with 'whole body' so it means you need to be well connected and your only as strong as the weakest link. Also reach does get a little less and it sort of becomes the norm to get in close. But these initial disadvantage probably are only for beginners I would imagine.

There are different ways to use connection and whole body movement.

There doesn't need to be any kind of disadvantage or problem as many strikes need body connection upon impact only. It can start disconnected and connect through foot and spine first when the fist make contact with the surface. If the connection is sudden, the strike might have a more explosive effect. The disadvantage with starting off or driving the fist with a connected body is that it's harder to get the right angle of the body on impact. If the line of the strike does not go straight into the body, the effect will be less. If you are already issuing the strike, it's harder to change with a connected structure and if you change it, you might lose the movement from the innitial connection.

Also, you can start off by storing movement/momentum. This is a bit different from just whole body connection only as there is a tension in the opposite direction of the strike. To use releasing energy you need to store the movement and release it first upon contact. To practice his kind of strike, it's better to start using connected movement. But later, the strik itself can be initially disconnected with the body and the tension releases when the body connects.

So you could use:

Whole body movement to drive the fist ("Body throws out fist".

Fist starts but connects with body upon contact ("body chase fist").

Fist driven by the body winding up and release.

Body winds up, but strike is initially disconnected. Body release tension upon contact.

You can also add to the power as well as stabilize the body upon contact by coordinating horizontal and vertical movements of the body. If the spine rises at the same time as the body moves forward and the waist twists, you have three different "vectors" or forces that cooperate together. You can add all of the different forces in the moment of impact or use one of these vectors to initially drive the strike and let the other ones follow up upon contact.

[windwalker]

Edited: out of context for this discussion

[Subitai]

I'm not sure what Grandmaster William C. C. Chen is saying in this Vid below...whatever it is, please someone explain it to me because i'm not in favor of it. But out of all this discussion of fancy punching am I the only one to bring up either the hand is tight on impact or loose?

[Bao]

I'm not sure what Grandmaster William C. C. Chen is saying in this Vid below...whatever it is, please someone explain it to me because i'm not in favor of it. But out of all this discussion of fancy punching am I the only one to bring up either the hand is tight on impact or loose?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMIP_VRelEc]

Watch the other clip. He explains that it's totally loose and demonstrates it by holding a banana with the striking hand.

[califax]

The whole debate is rather silly. If you hit with the right knuckle and a single straight vector from knuckle through hand and armbone to elbow it doesn't matter whether you have a closed fist or an open one. If you don't, you will break your hand. A closed fist will not prevent that injury at all. That's why boxers have the gloves. Because a fist does not protect your hand. What a closed fist allows is for easier stabilization of the hook.

[Steve James]

Try Joe Louis punching on YouTube
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E-4DMPM2lns

[marvin8]

Published on Jul 21, 2015
Chen Tai Chi competition. Wang Zhanjun is the son of Wang Xi'an . Wang Xi'an is one of four greatest grandmasters of Chen Tai Chi. The four grandmasters are Chen Xiaowang, Wang Xi'an, Chen Zhenglei, Zhu tiancai. They learnt Tai Chi together , the same teacher.

Now that we have an actual video of tai chi sparring and Wang Zhan Jun has practiced "taji shenfa" for more than 10 years . . .

Do you believe this taiji shenfa has been displayed in the push hands competitions, tai chi combat competitions, or sparring, that we have seen?

Which goes back to the OP:

I'm interested in what you think.

1. Is there a difference between a good Sanda punch and a good Tai Chi punch? If so, what's your reasoning. And if not, what's your reasoning.

2. If you've been on the receiving end of punches from different styles (say, in competition or sparring) - did they feel different? If so, how?

1. Is there a difference in Wang Zhan Jun's punches, kicks or throws?

2. Did Wang Zhan Jun have a different effect on his opponent?