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waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:37 am
by WVMark
Anyone have a good explanation of the waidan and neidan? Or know of sources that explain them? I've been reading through a couple of books by Dr. Yang and it seems like (my personal take on things) waidan isn't really "external" at all but more internal type of training to change the physical body. So, external in that it works with one's physical body changes and not "external" as many argue about when they discuss "internal vs external" martial arts. Anyway, it's just a pervading thought I had when reading through and thought I'd post it here to see what other resources/opinions/discussions would come out.

Mark

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:40 am
by Bao
If you read Dr Yang (Jwing-Ming, I suppose?) you should know that on old median charts, the three Dantians was marked by pictures of stoves, that the Dantian was resembled by a stove, as the "heart flame" sinks down to the "water" and creates steam. Right?

There's a reason for this symbol of the stove and the term "nei". In ancient China, the way of fast stir frying foods we see in the modern China, was in fact created for warfare, to prepare food quickly for the troops in battle by using very high heat to fry shredded pieces of meats and vegetables. This method was called "wai", to cook outside on the field. The opposite was nei, the more sophisticated ways to cook food inside the house, when you could take time and make effort to create more splendid dishes.

So Neidan means slow, careful internal refinement, Waidan means fast, external refinement. So this meaning "nei" as in neidan is also how Neijiaquan connects to Daoist practice and terminology.

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:43 am
by Trick
with all the today's fast food consumption, there Mutts be a lot of warriors around :) I generally do not think about Neidan&Weidan, but the cooking idea/analogy sound interesting, never heard it before

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:07 am
by Bao
I know there are references in old classical texts on this, but I can't find the source. I know I've saved the name of the anthology on daoist practice somewhere... :-\

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:34 pm
by wayne hansen
I like that explanation
I also had never heard it before
Have heard plenty of others though

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:16 pm
by robert
I think dan means elixir like in dantian which can be translated as elixir field. Waidan would be external elixir referring to using chemicals/plants to achieve immortality and neidan is internal elixir and refers to using the body/mind to achieve immortality - breathing/daoyin/meditation and so on.

See the section Outer and inner alchemy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_alchemy

Note the reference to the three treasures: jing, qi, and shen under neidan. Some martial arts, like xingyiquan, claim to transform the three treasures putting them in the neidan tradition.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/diguoyongBIS.html

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:41 pm
by posidon
One of the very good books on the subject is " Shen Gong and Nei Dan in Da Xuan. A Manual for Working with Mind, Emotion, and Internal Energy" by Serge Augier.

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:48 am
by Bao
Nope, can't find the source. But for your interest, there's a chapter in the Liji, or "The Book of rites", the Nei Ze, 内则, that deals with cooking, meals, recipes and all the procedures and customs "inside the home" around eating. You can find all of it here translated by James Legge:
http://ctext.org/liji/nei-ze/ens?searchu=敦牟卮匜,非餕莫敢用;&searchmode=showall#result

BTW, "Waidan" can also mean the procedure of making medicines. So maybe the most proper explanation for neidan/waidan should be to nourish the "dan", elixir, from either inside or outside of the body. Or neidan, working with the body itself, and waidan to make medicine or nourish the Dan from outside.

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:27 am
by Trick
Bao wrote:Nope, can't find the source. But for your interest, there's a chapter in the Liji, or "The Book of rites", the Nei Ze, 内则, that deals with cooking, meals, recipes and all the procedures and customs "inside the home" around eating. You can find all of it here translated by James Legge:
http://ctext.org/liji/nei-ze/ens?searchu=敦牟卮匜,非餕莫敢用;&searchmode=showall#result

BTW, "Waidan" can also mean the procedure of making medicines. So maybe the most proper explanation for neidan/waidan should be to nourish the "dan", elixir, from either inside or outside of the body. Or neidan, working with the body itself, and waidan to make medicine or nourish the Dan from outside.

Thanks for that, quite interesting read.

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:48 am
by WVMark
Thanks for all the replies. It's interesting as a concept overall. For example, if you train just the muscles and skin, you might get to a point where you're immovable (not stuck in the ground unable to move, but rather forces acting upon your body have no affect). That would be considered too much yang, though. In the grand scheme of things, there is no yin/yang present in you. Being immovable (again, having complete freedom of movement while forces are trying to restrain you) can be a huge thing in martial training. But to balance out, or have yin/yang, one must train something like the Xi Sui Jing, for marrow and brain. At least that's what I'm currently understanding from reading.

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:10 am
by Yeung
張志通 Zhang Zhi Tong:
外内丹功初級班教學影片(wai nei dan gong video for beginners)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHGo0RYkXC0
The Fourthway ManHo Center (FMC) is not a Wai-Neidangomg center. Its role is to mentor the Wai-Neidangong research as part of its research assignment to learners working towards degrees from St. Clements University, which is the awarding university for the diploma or the degree in the Science of Natural Psychophysical Therapy. The research component is regulated independently by FMC, while the training component is a free choice of the learners. This program is undergoing revision and currently not available.
http://www.tanmanho.com/mtd/programs/Movements1.htm

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:20 am
by Yeung
A kind of esoteric practice of externalized congenital strength developed by Zhang Zhi Tong (1920-1985) in Taiwan. It is called Wai Dan Gong or Wai Nei Dan Gong, which is not Wai Dan and Nei Dan. Wai Dan traditionally refers to the making of elixir. From observation it is a kind of external exercise claims to stimulate congenital strength or energy with therapeutic outcomes.

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:57 pm
by taiwandeutscher
Not really, it was developed after the guy had a stroke, it is a simple training routine, not anything esoteric. After some time of popularity, it is rather seldom to be seen nowadays over here in TW!

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:37 pm
by Wuyizidi
WVMark wrote:Anyone have a good explanation of the waidan and neidan? Or know of sources that explain them? I've been reading through a couple of books by Dr. Yang and it seems like (my personal take on things) waidan isn't really "external" at all but more internal type of training to change the physical body. So, external in that it works with one's physical body changes and not "external" as many argue about when they discuss "internal vs external" martial arts. Anyway, it's just a pervading thought I had when reading through and thought I'd post it here to see what other resources/opinions/discussions would come out.

Mark


Wai: external
Nei: internal
Dan: pill, elixir

From observing nature, ancient people can see materials can transform (ex. oxidation causing metal to rust). So people, east or west, since the earliest days of civilization, pursued alchemy with 2 major goals in mind: 1. turning non-precious metal into gold, 2. immortality. The pursuit of former lead to modern chemistry in the west, the pursuit of later led to invention of dao gong practices in China.

In China, the pursuit of immortality started as an external practice. People followed the "you are what you eat" logic. If your goal is permanence, immutability, then ingest something in nature that is already like that. This meant jade, marble, heavy metal (especially mercury). This practice went on for a really long time, all the way into Tang Dynasty, where many of the greatest poets engaged in the practice. Needless to say, this was a dead end.

At some point people finally realized this, and concluded the answer is not "out there", but inside. That the magical Dan is not something physical, but something intangible, the life essence itself. Traditionally people believe the body possess three treasures, jing, qi, and shen. Over the next three dynasties, this practice developed into full maturity (sometimes around early Ming Dynasty). This practice is called Dao Gong. What we today call qi gong is but a foundation skill (how to circulate and manipulate qi) within that overall practice. The basic idea is to cultivate jing into qi, and then transform qi into shen (the ultimate animating force of life).

Since we're talking about immortality here, all of this are highly guarded secrets. So much so that in many lineages, in each generation the secret is passed from teacher to one disciple only. For the longest time little was written down. And to further guard the secret, all the terminologies used in Dao Gong practice are borrowed directly from traditional alchemy. Hence names like Dan, Dan Tian (field where dan is cultivated), cauldron, high heat, gentle heat, mercury, etc. Only people in the know would have any idea where those correspond to inside the body. For these reasons, the practice of traditional alchemy is call Wai Dan Gong (external dan practice), the new Dao Gong practice is called Nei Dan Gong (internal dan practice).

Daoists are probably unique amongst all religions in that they regard mind and body equally important. In most religions internal (mind, spirit) is high level, and external/physical is low level. Neverless, for the big martial art groups, no one wants to admit they are external only, lacking internal practices.

A good example of this mindset is how people look at American Football - yes, for a short time you look like you're super human, but very soon that's over and your life expectancy is like half of average people. Chinese people would therefore consider such life-shortening practice to be low level. This is why you see groups with great fighting reputations like Tongbei incorporating large sets of qigong practices as part of their formal curriculum. Those practices have little or no connection with the distinctive fighting skills of those groups.

For internal martial art however, the interesting thing is that there is a fundamental compatibility and integration between dao gong practices and the martial art skills. That is, just by practicing the skills, you get many of the benefits of dao gong practices at the same time.

However that is not to say internal martial art = nei dan. It's more like this: if you practice tennis at a competitive level, you will get high level cardiovascular benefits. But ultimately tennis is not just about that, it has all these other things that is ultimately just about winning the point. If you just want cardiovascular benefits, a more focused, pure practice like running or swimming will get you the results you're looking for much quicker.

Re: waidan and neidan

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:33 pm
by wayne hansen
Love the tennis analogy