the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

The fact that you think you can do any push hands with a wing Chun person that is not totally freestyle and bordering on sparing shows a lack of understanding
Wing Chun pushing is using ward off all the time there is no roll back just angulation of attack.
The fact that he went to wing Chun for more realism shows the quality of tai chi he was taught.

Was a bit hard to follow, but

1. these arts have very different approaches/strategies/tactics/training methods
2. why does everyone think tai chi does not immediately give some good benefit... now if you want to hug chee (I like this btw) primarily, sure. just doing qigong isn't the same as doing MA.

I'm honestly not a fan of Chishou as practised in Yongchunquan. Too rigid and not realistic enough for my tastes. I think that the equivalent striking drill in other arts like Heihuquan and Baguazhang is handled better. In Taijiquan I find that Tuishou, limited as it is, more easily translates to grappling skills. I don't see how the two could be trained together without major modification on both sides..

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

It's hard to follow you, maybe because I am not too familiar with chi sao. I am guessing in chi sao, it's ok to use more than 4 oz, more arm strength than whole body, and you want to primarily train protection of your centerline with moves that do that and strikes that primarily seek to enter on the centerline; there isn't any philosophical 4 oz ideal. In push hands, you go for sensitivity and 4 oz with whole body power/connection all the time, plus there is relatively more emphasis on off-balances and push/pull/throw. So things are similar but different. Interested to hear more.

I agree with Maarten. Tuishou leads up to grappling as a sort of good prerequisite that also makes you better (better at listening, less prone to use force on force) before you take up a grappling format.

You could be right, but it could also be that you yourself don't understand what we were doing.


Yes I would have to be there to know what you were doing
However I am commenting on the information you are giving

As a teacher, you need to be a 'master', I get that.

As a teacher you need to be free to make mistakes

As a student, I am free to show a lack of understanding. I am free to say, I don't understand the point or result of this exercise, and therefore I must follow the exercise and see what happens. I must be a "good student".

Yes that is the right attitude,it is also my attitude
This is what ,invest in loss means

This is something you lack as a teacher. If this is a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know. As for myself, I'd like to be a teacher too

I never wanted to be a teacher I did it as a good student because my teacher requested it
I have spent many years trying to free that shackle
That is why I don't teach many these day

All I was trying to say is wing Chun and tai chi pushing are like two gears that don't mesh
You can find ways to work together but it must be closer to real fighting
However saying that I see a lot of wing Chun people seem to be adopting a tai chi style of pushing these days

It is very limiting to think about sticking or push hands while (free) sparring. It's​ unrealistic to assume the stick will last long enough & also limits the opportunuty to learn other things that can happen before and after a stick that might occur.

It's also very limiting to think that good cma guys try to focus and only train on a single aspect or try to invest getting smacked around just to remain in a style. If the method is not working under moderate pressure then it's probably not the right method to apply in that situation.

There might be exceptions but all the cma fighters that I've met that could handle themselves knew how to hit, lock, throw and move freely with a lot of connected strength which they got from learning several cma styles. Sticking sensitivity & adaptation was important but was one part of several.

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Pushing is not an end within itself.
It is a training exercise that is part of a whole system which includes sparing.

it is very limiting to think about sticking or push hands while (free) sparring.

IMO, following and adapting should be a result from PH practice and similar in an intuitive manner. Sticking is a result of the situation. If you can do it, you can do it, it depends on what's happening. But trying to force a sticky situation (Ha ha! ) or passively waiting for a moment when you can use PH tactics is not ... mmmm... how to say... usually not very successful...

Appledog wrote:

dspyrido wrote:It's also very limiting to think that good cma guys try to focus and only train on a single aspect or try to invest getting smacked around just to remain in a style. If the method is not working under moderate pressure then it's probably not the right method to apply in that situation.

I guess this is one of the reasons why it's so hard to learn Tai Chi. Anyways I was thinking about what wayne hansen said about wing chun being all peng and angular momentum. That seems to be a very concise explanation of the experience. It's a good way of looking at what I was feeling from him. Dealing with it was interesting, but it is impossible for me to describe it in words offhand. It was as much my fault as his. I realized I was fighting him because he was fighting me.

It's hard to learn taiji for most people because they will not give up their idea/use of force.

You can only feel your own pung/peng, just as one can only feel their own force.
This is part of what "investing in loss means" do not use force. This is also the way to deal with it.

Played with some wing chun people before. If one does not use force they can't really do to much,
as this is what they require in order to exert their own.
IMO/IME push hands is an exercise...If one wants to test whether they've gained the attributes light sparing would be the best way.

If one is trying to "remain" in a style it means they have not really trained enough, the style is still outside of themselves.

粘黏連隨
[4] STICK, ADHERE, CONNECT, AND FOLLOW

粘者提上拔髙之謂也
黏者留戀繾綣之謂也
連者舍己無離之謂也
隨者彼走此應之謂也
要知人之知覺運動非明粘黏連隨不可斯粘黏連隨之功夫亦甚細矣
Sticking means to lift up high.
Adhering means to stay and be attached.
Connecting means to let go of yourself and not separate from the opponent.
Following means to follow him wherever he goes.
If you want to move with awareness and yet you do not understand sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, it will be beyond your reach, for it is a very subtle skill.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

It seems some are talking about strategies confusing them with attributes /skill
Push hands is a way of training to gain the skill so that one can implement the strategies.

It seems some are talking about strategies confusing them with attributes /skill
Push hands is a way of training to gain the skill so that one can implement the strategies.

This statement is really helpful I think.

Still on this learning tangent, maybe you are talking about an entire art when you say "difficult", but IME, it doesn't seem difficult at all to learn some basic tai chi such as a basic rollback to pulldown ph pattern. I learned some as a kid before learning any other MA, and taught some to my kids when they were pretty little. It is really easy to learn rollback to pulldown and then counter with peng and ji in a little game of pushing. What we did was basically play "king of the hill". Then in a static drill, it's easy to learn rollback energy (outside or inside of arm) to deflect a more sudden push/closer to a punch. When I say easy, if kids can learn something, adults should be able to (but granted it is usually MUCH MORE DIFFICULT for adults to pick up new physical, technical skills; I know this quite deeply from coaching youth football/soccer: kids can make super rapid progress and can more easily empty their cups). Kids, at least boys, quite naturally like pushing/pulling/light wrestling. Refining that a tiny bit isn't difficult, either. Transitioning from ph to judo randori is also fairly natural (if only people did ph with similar rules). The only thing that seems "difficult" to me is adding striking if all of this is more push/pull/wrestle oriented. Maybe that is what you mean by difficult. Going into a more free sparring format.

The idea of "pushing" in taiji is very much mistaken IME/IMO.
It comes from the misunderstanding of whats called "push hands" followed by another misunderstanding for what its used for
and how to do it.... not being able to really do, develops wrong ideas about skill sets, and attributes developed. The understanding of
empty/full, open/close. nothing to do with pushing.

Taiji should be tested just like any other MA by sparing or fighting not by push hands,
as most Chinese MA, it also has to deal with 3 ranges, using a verity of methods
to view it in the context of one method ie grappling IMO is very much mistaken.

others may find different.