The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:54 pm

In "training", the difference between boxing punch and CMA punch are:

1. In

- boxing punch, when you punch out your right fist, your left fist are resting - not doing anything.
- CMA punch, when you punch out your right fist, you pull back your left fist at the same time. Your right arm and left arm coordinate as one unit.

2. In

- boxing punch, your right straight punch and left straight punch may not hit on the same spot.
- CMA punch, your right straight punch and left straight punch will always hit on the exactly same spot.

3. In

- boxing punch, your straight punch will go through a straight line.
- CMA punch, when you do a straight punch, your fist, elbow, and arm are twisting from the beginning all the way till the end.

What's your opinion on this?
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:09 pm

I agree with number one. My right hand/arm is always doing something too. There is a line running from my right elbow to my left fist. The others will depend on what style you train.

Another difference for me is that my fists are vertical (or nearly so) when I punch (but not all my strikes are punches), whereas they are horizontal (for straight punches at least) in boxing.

The biggest difference for me is that the method of power generation is completely different, as are the footwork and stance.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby everything on Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:17 pm

I think #1 is "it depends" on the punch. In a jab, boxers may keep their other hand by their head. In other punches (look up Mike Tyson gifs for example), that may not be the case.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:35 pm

You cannot hit with an open glove, the inside of the glove, the wrist, the backhand, or the side of the hand.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Rules_of_Boxing

I would tend to look at rule sets, context, assumptions, and gloves vs bare fist for why things
might be used or trained differently.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10544
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:56 pm

johnwang wrote:In "training", the difference between boxing punch and CMA punch are:

1. In

- boxing punch, when you punch out your right fist, your left fist are resting - not doing anything.
- CMA punch, when you punch out your right fist, you pull back your left fist at the same time. Your right arm and left arm coordinate as one unit.

No. Left hand can be blocking, catching, parrying, hand trapping, guard trapping, head control, lifting opponent's elbow up, while right hand punches.

Regarding cross body power:
marvin8 wrote:From Robert Tangora Tai Chi Cloud Hands Interview,
This is kind of the place where I say, you can do the cross body power stuff and you can do it just purely as bio-mechanics. And it’s quite effective. It’s actually very efficient. And actually I allude to this in the book, but a good example of this if you want to see it, watch the documentary ‘When We Were Kings’, which was the Foreman-Ali documentary that was done before the fight in Zaire, and there’s a scene where they show Foreman hitting a heavy bag. And it’s the biggest heavy bag that you can get, something like about 150 pounds. And he’s hitting it and he’s basically indented it, like it was a basketball or watermelon from just hitting it. And what George Foreman did very well is exactly what cross body power is:

Published on Jan 21, 2014
George Foreman Hitting the bag with all his power THREE different times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApQlzehYyfo

johnwang wrote:2. In

- boxing punch, your right straight punch and left straight punch may not hit on the same spot.
- CMA punch, your right straight punch and left straight punch will always hit on the exactly same spot.

Boxing punch can be aimed at the same spot every time (e.g. chin, face, solar plexus, etc.). However, opponent can move, defend, etc. Combinations are created with opponent's possible reactions in mind.

If opponent moves or covers up, how can can it be guaranteed that "CMA punch, your right straight punch and left straight punch will always hit on the exactly same spot?"

johnwang wrote:3. In

- boxing punch, your straight punch will go through a straight line.
- CMA punch, when you do a straight punch, your fist, elbow, and arm are twisting from the beginning all the way till the end.

What's your opinion on this?

Not sure what you mean. However, most punches are thrown relaxed and "your fist, elbow, and arm are twisting from the beginning all the way till the end."

If you mean chamber punch from waist, no. It is generally not recommended as it leaves you exposed.

Edit: Although boxing may speak in different terms and train differently, I suspect some of the internal forces/biomechanics (e.g., spirals, etc.) are the same as IMA.

Starting @ 2:26, this "expert" seems to describe generating circular energy from the dantian.

Published on Jan 25, 2014
Circular energy technique allow your movements to be faster and easier because you are using the same energy to cycle into other moves (allowing you to flow smooth from one move to another, whether it's an offensive fighting move or a defensive fighting move). Circular energy allows you to throw combination punches (faster, more flow, less effort) and make defensive maneuvers more slick, and also to transition between the two seamlessly (with no interruptions in your flow or rhythm).

Without circular energy technique, you would have to keep regenerating new energy with every new movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFwizLhA2P4

MMA punches are less restricted and include boxing, CMA, etc., punches.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:11 pm

When you punch your right hand out, if you pull your left hand back, this punch out and pull back coordination will cause your body to rotate. It will help you to generate punching power. I just don't see this training exist in the WC system.

In the following clip, you can see when he punches one hand out, his other hand is "static".

Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby dspyrido on Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:00 pm

johnwang wrote:In the following clip, you can see when he punches one hand out, his other hand is "static".


Under the yip man lineage there's 2 other forms which have movements where one hand pulls back while the other strikes. Some flavours of wc also like shifting weight between legs and twisting the torso.

Btw I can think of exceptions for all 3 points you mention. Boxers start with 4 basic punches which get drilled intensely. Then it's up to the individual to vary these punches and add extras.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2474
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:33 am

johnwang wrote:When you punch your right hand out, if you pull your left hand back, this punch out and pull back coordination will cause your body to rotate. It will help you to generate punching power. I just don't see this training exist in the WC system.

In the following clip, you can see when he punches one hand out, his other hand is "static".


Chu Shong Tin line uses Nim Lik to describe a type of power energy. Apparent benefits are power, speed, etc. These are theories and demonstrations. How it would work in sparring, I don't know.

@ :44, power generated through state of mind.

Published on Dec 6, 2016
Nima talks about Wing Chun's first empty hand form as passed on by the 'king of siu nim tao' Grand master Chu Shong Tin - Hong Kong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlcJyRZQqKA


Uploaded on Feb 21, 2009
Chief Instructor Tony Psaila discusses Body Mass Transfer in Part 2 of the Power of Relaxation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czC3XdVNzgo

Published on Dec 2, 2016
In this video Grandmaster Chu Shong Tin discusses and demonstrates the use and transmitting of Chi/Nim Lik/ Energy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxWti1xHqAk
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby dspyrido on Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:43 am

marvin8 wrote:These are theories and demonstrations. How it would work in sparring, I don't know


They dont work in sparring. They are training concepts to remove tension, getting better alignment snd being able to focus the body better in application. In sparring they have either been ingrained to help or not.

They dont remove the value of speed, reacting with the right counters, foot work, generating power with the use of the coordinated body and cardio if the sparring is intense and last several minutes. They can help but only if the fundamentals are in place.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2474
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:16 am

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:These are theories and demonstrations. How it would work in sparring, I don't know


They dont work in sparring. They are training concepts to remove tension, getting better alignment snd being able to focus the body better in application. In sparring they have either been ingrained to help or not.

They dont remove the value of speed, reacting with the right counters, foot work, generating power with the use of the coordinated body and cardio if the sparring is intense and last several minutes. They can help but only if the fundamentals are in place.

The boxing kinetic chain power (e.g., whole body power starting from ground) has shown to "work in sparring," as there are many videos.

If the CMA punch is "ingrained" and from "generating power with the use of the coordinated body," should we not see a difference in effect against an opponent in sparring? Or at least hear about it afterwards?

I don't have a video of a CMA generated punch. However, here is an IMA generated throw:
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Is there any video showing the internal “body method” being used in competition or real fight, not a demonstration? There are many videos of trained athletes' KO’s, ippons, submissions, etc.

How would internal "body method" help improve these athletes’ body method and outcomes?

That is the question that I have tried to asked in the past 20 years in this forum.

1. What should "internal body method" look like when you apply "hip throw" or "single leg"? Can someone just put up a "demo" clip?

For John Wang. Finally found it @2:50! -woot- :
Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby Pavel Macek on Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:01 am

I do not agree with any of the points above, and I will add a bullet point of mine:

4. Boxing punches have been tested in millions of full contact sport fights - CMA punches have been discussed in million theories.

Once TCMA stop looking for differences, start looking for similarities, train, test, adjust, and test again, they will do much better.
Pavel Macek

Practical Hung Kyun | http://www.practicalhungkyun.com
SIMPLEXSTRONG | http://www.simplexstrong.com
Pavel Macek
Mingjing
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:22 am

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:26 pm

I agree with the point on similarity
If two people disagree either could be wrong
If all agree there is a greater chance they are right
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:57 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I agree with the point on similarity

When you train "1 step 3 punches", if you keep

- "square shoulder - chest and arm are in a 90% angle", you can throw more punches in 1 second but your punch will be weak.
- "extend shoulder - chest and arm are in a 180 degree angle", you will throw less punches in 1 second but your punch will be more powerful.

This will apply to both TCMA and boxing.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:01 pm

It must take longer to cover a greater distance
You have just doubled the distance in the same time
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: The difference between boxing punch and CMA punch

Postby dspyrido on Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:30 pm

marvin8 wrote:If the CMA punch is "ingrained" and from "generating power with the use of the coordinated body," should we not see a difference in effect against an opponent in sparring? Or at least hear about it afterwards?


Boxing ingrains the kinetic aspect of punching because with a limb only hit:

1. Without momentum little compression occurs in 16oz gloves which means little relevant impact occurs short of exposure to follow ups
2. Therefore zero points are scored

Drop the gloves and it is easier to transfer energy when bone meets bone. So cma also adds whipping more limb oriented strike eg a backfist or chain punching in wc can stun someone for a follow up momentum hit such as a haymaker (less used in boxing for obvious reasons), hooks, uppercuts or hammer fists (also not used due to the down ward potential on the back if the head). With gloves on these taps are like being hit with heavy pillows.

Whole body power definitely exists in cma eg in xylh it is ingrained in every movement and looks more like peek a boo boxing. It's the principles of the harmonies.

Relaxed power or a power that is uses the spring rebounding force that is found in cma is different to typical comprsssion based boxing punches. It uses momentum but works mainly off acceleration vs pushing through and has a ground line so that force rebounds back into the target. Note good boxers get this especially in a jab where it looks relaxed yet seems to land with power. But I am yet to meet a boxer who can do it well from parallel legs, in directions of force that are offline or over a short distance. This is one area that icma do seem to have have something different but is rarely seen. Much easier to find good boxers.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2474
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests