Kevin Wallbridge on "internal vs. external"

[WVMark]

It seems to me (and this is all my personal opinion) that to even be considered a "martial art", you have to have both wai and nei. Sort of the yin/yang to the training. Wai training is comprised of those exercises to change the body. I guess an example would be the type of body changing training that allows one to start withstanding pushes without needing to use movement to cancel out. In the Japanese side of things, Ueshiba would have everyone push on him while he just stood there. No techniques, no moving around. This kind of training deals with changing how the body uses muscles, going from localized usage to more whole body integration. Tissue, fascia, muscles. Wai deals with this. Nei, if opposite, then deals with the mind and marrow. A more "internal" change than the wai training. The argument over "internal" vs "external" is far off base most of the time. Martial systems must have waigong and neigong training. The differences in martial systems are the exercises for this kind of training, the strategies, the tactics, and then the actual applications from a changed body. But without both the wai and nei ... is it really a "martial art"?

Mark

[I-mon]

What I think is most interesting about this is that the main regions of the body in which emotional tensions arise are the same places that internal martial arts use to generate relaxed whole body power. If there are tensions or flaccidity in the pelvic floor, the lower middle and upper parts of the abdomen, lower middle and upper parts of the ribcage, neck or throat, or the eyes, then they break the smooth transfer of momentum from the ground to the extremities. So, "internal" training, has to involve an emotional component, even if it is not mentioned explicitly.

[Steve Rowe]

My take on the issue (can't get the desktop address off my phone) https://youtu.be/BZXd2KFLuzU

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[windwalker]

One of my teachers basically said that to get to the end of taiji you had to approach it as if it wasn't a martial art in the first place, and then add the martial art knowledge later on.

good post

Interesting approach one I also have come to use. Probably for the same reasons as the teacher you mentioned.


To the post in gen, it would seem that :

those who discount it will
those who feel they get it, got it even if they do not.
those who got it, won't say much not needing to.

[Bao]

One of my teachers basically said that to get to the end of taiji you had to approach it as if it wasn't a martial art in the first place, and then add the martial art knowledge later on.

good post

Interesting approach one I also have come to use. Probably for the same reasons as the teacher you mentioned.

Tai Chi definitively works best if you don't regard it as a martial art, or try to use it with a martial art mind set. IMO, Tai Chi is at it's best when it's an anti-martial art, when it does not acknowledge violence, anger or any kind of combative mind-set from the opponent. The opponent is regarded more or less as a moving object only.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[Steve James]

I have nothing to add to the internal v external debate. What I do agree with Wallbridge is that the meaning of "internal" has certainly been divorced from any type of ethical thinking. However, I ran into this article about arts that are not external that has a similar message. http://www.bjjee.com/articles/rickson-g ... barbarism/

[Wuyizidi]

Today most of the confusion of what is external vs what is internal mostly come within the internal camp. The definition itself is actually very simple and straightforward: if we flip through any Chinese language encyclopedia-type work on Chinese martial art, we would see under entries for each style what major type of physical motion is used, and the types of Jin (trained force) used.

All martial art are about generating forces and using them on the opponent to get some desired effect (injury, death, immobilization, compliance...). These trained forces can be broadly categorized into external and internal. External means you can understand everything about a skill just by seeing it. On a basic level, most of us can understand what a jab is very quickly, here the challenge is can you punch as hard as Mike Tyson.

Internal, by definition is not something that is easy to see. Here the movement are tiny and subtle. Internal Jin need to be experienced in person over and over again. Hence the emphasis on lineage in internal martial art - without a good teacher, there's little chance the student would even understands what he or she is supposed to train for. You never see external people have debates, questions about basic things like internal people do. Today because we don't need to fight emptyhanded, there is a general disengagement between practice and fighting. And for the practitioners, debate lingers because there are simply no consequences for being wrong. There is no real world feedback. So today especially, the challenge is understanding what internal skill is in the first place.

Internal martial art are called that not because they only use internal Jin, and that external martial art don't use any internal Jin. It's a spectrum. Wrestling uses a lot of internal Jin, Qin na even more so. No single, or single type of Jin can do everything - External jins are better for striking, internal better for control. Internal martial arts are called that because the emphasis is on gaining control using internal Jin first before finishing with external Jin.

In the end there can be no jin without physical movement. And since many internal martial art movements (ex. single whip) come from external martial art, it's common to see internal people fighting using not just physical movements from external martial art, but jin as well, and not using any internal jin. This is what people mean when they say "so and so is not internal". People can still win this way if they're faster and stronger than the opponent. But against someone who is equally good, this can make the internal person look really bad. For example, in Bagua lots of people think the physical movement they can see is all there is to the skill, so when crossing hands with opponent they try to directly circle behind the opponent. Very quickly they find out this doesn't work - if a good opponent is always at the center of the circle, he can react and adjust to any movement we make on the outside of the circle with a fractionally smaller movement. This is because unless during that initial contact we used control skills to change the existing centerline to one where we're at the new center, we have no chance to sneak behind him. All IMA skills comes from control. Without control many of the pure internal skills cannot even work...


More info: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin1.html

[Bhassler]

Personally, I think the only really relevant definitions of internal/external are those provided by one's own teacher/colleagues. If it's not directly useful to one's own training, then it's all just for fun, anyways.

That said, if "emotions" (七情 qìqīng) are viewed as the totality of both the brain's narrative (inclusive of the "feelings" that most equate with "emotions") and the afferent input of the entire nervous system and how the brain processes that input, Kevin's definition above starts to look quite similar to some of the latest research on neurology/function/pain. In that light, "internal" practice could be viewed as practice which primarily engages the parasympathetic nervous system at the deepest levels, whereas so-called external systems are more interested in musculoskeletal mechanics (keeping in mind that it's always a balance, and not either/or).

Just brain candy, though, nothing serious. Move along...

[voidisyinyang]

I just found an article this morning which may be of some interest.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... un-lutang/

First essay is on the differences between internal and external.

Wow - this quote is an amazing secret revealed.

“My opinion is that there are internal and external types of breathing. First seek for the breath to be fully getting through. The distinction is whether or not the breath is getting through. Those who have never practiced boxing arts or are just beginning to, their breathing usually goes no lower than mid-torso before it goes back up, and so their energy ends up floating upward. This is called ‘hindered breathing’. When the breath is suppressed to an extreme degree, the temperament is affected, and that person develops a combative personality. Such a level of internal fire burns them up until they are scorched.
“If the breath is trained to move downward and go directly to the elixir field, then in the course of time, the heart [the peak active organ] and kidneys [the peak passive organ] will be cooperating. Water and fire will be in a state of mutual benefit [as in hexagram 63 (made of water ☵ on top of fire ☲)], keeping internal fire from burning upward. Breathing can thus be natural and not get turned around mid-torso. In this way, the body can be said to be connected inside and out, upper body and lower, energy will flow smoothly, and the breath can get through to the lower torso. But there’s basically only one kind of energy and it’s a mistake to think there are two. The problem is when it is kept from getting through. Ziyu said: ‘Seek for your lost mind. Once you have found it, your Daoist mind is born.’ [This seems to be a paraphrasing from Mengzi, chapter 6a: ‘The study of the Way is nothing more than the quest for your lost mind.’] This describes the Daoist principle of watching and listening inwardly.”