Appledog wrote:
How come I never saw ma yueliang do this? There are dozens of films of him pushing hands with people. How come no one was ever able to brace against him like in all these clips?
charles wrote:
Who is writing off what? And are they writing it off because "so many are ignorant and useless with another" part of Taijiquan? I'm not sure what the connection is between writing something off and being "ignorant and useless with another" part.
cloudz wrote:If you can't handle some pushing and shoving without becoming total shit, then what can it possibly be good for.
charles wrote:I don't know what "without becoming a total shit" means? You get angry? You punch the guy in the face? You injure his shoving arm? is that "becoming a total shit"?
charles wrote:What is the "it" in "what can it possibly be good for"? Are you stating that what Taijiquan is "good for" is not becoming a "total shit" if someone pushes or shoves you?
cloudz wrote:And the chances of the skills and attributes working against punches and kicks are less so and ever diminishing.
charles wrote:What "skills and attributes" are you referring to that have little chance of working against punches and kicks? The question of why they are "ever diminishing" is a different issue.
cloudz wrote:Now, whilst I'm not as in love with this guy as he is with himself, his push hands skills hold up well..
charles wrote:"Hold up well" as what or when? A knife fight? Against a gun? Against a bunch of gang members wanting to kill him? Or against a friendly exchange with rules? Or....?
cloudz wrote:But it does go to show that you can achieve something good, there are loads of people that have developed good skill and attributes (not just in co operative work) through this type of training. No one can change my mind about that, because it's simply true. Like it or not.
charles wrote:If, by "this type of training", you mean push hands practice, in general, sure, one can develop some skills and "attributes". If you mean just shoving back and forth, less so, and different skills.
Whenever I see fixed step "competition" push hands I'm always reminded of a Netflix ad that was on TV. The ad shows two parents and their 10-year old boy watching a western movie. In the movie there is the white-hatted good-guy cowboy fist fighting against several black-hatted bad-guy cowboys. One of the bad guys is - in true Hollywood style - punched, falls through the balcony railing and lands on a table in the saloon. After sufficient time of the fist fighting, the 10-year-old watching the movie says to his parents, "They know they have guns, don't they?", referring to the fact that all of the cowboys are sporting holsters with guns in them, but instead are punching it out.
That's how I feel about much of fixed step push hands: it has its value early on it practice, but quickly becomes very limited, denying many of the "realistic" tools and skills one would want to develop and rely upon.
RobP3 wrote:Would be interesting to see one of these high level people in a low level shoving match. They should dominate it easily, right?
There's no need to make this more difficult or confusing.. Windwalker brought up the point about this kind of competition and stated that he thinks people should be concerned about pugilism/ punching kickinf/ NHB - or whatever. I was replying to that. Writing off is a figure of speach. Read his post again; "brush off", "write off" "think less of"; characterize it however you like, the meaning doesn't change. In other words he's trying to tell me/us/you that because there's no punching and kicking, he doesn't see the value or point to it (competition pushing formats/ competitions). I am not making the connection; someone else is using one thing to "argue" against the usefullness of another thing. It seems pretty clear to me, go back and read the post before mine please.
I would look no further then competition
Chuang_Tzu wrote:When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets - He is out of his mind!
His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him. He cares. He thinks more of winning than of shooting- And the need to win drains him of power
cloudz wrote:Though saying that I though "just shoving" was something of an over simplicfication on your part, it could be viewed as condescension.
Well thanks for misquoting me. I didn't say "a total shit"
I'm saying if your tai chi skills fail you and you can't deal with it in the way you think you should; with your tai chi training and principles in mind etc. If you can't use it in that environment in those rulesets (fixed/moving step), then what ?
the ones you get from push hands training.
...against his opponent in the clip, in that environment, against someone allowed to do the same back.
Against a resisting person rather than a fixed pattern/ choreography.
The skills and attributes and principles we asccociate with taiji form and push hands can and should be transferable.
If you only do co-operative push hands patterns, you won't be able to use much of it against a resisting opponent. You'll be capable of more if you include non co operative work which is what we are talking about. Much more in my opinion, it's really a no brainer for me and has been for some time.
Just because you think you'll just throw a punch or whatever other tool you have in mind this is" lesser" in some way shape or form.
arguing against them on the point they are limited is to miss that (part of a larger system) point by a country mile, don't you think.
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