Free-form Shoving Hands

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[wayne hansen]

Those who couldn't stay the course

[C.J.W.]

Not sure exactly what you mean by shoving hand. Are you referring to low-level competitive PH practice?

[dspyrido]

a) I would say it came before push hands. Well before. Until someone thought they should create a more structured way of learning through patterns. Result? Push hands!

b) The point? Maybe it's to stop assuming people only attack in the patterns found in push hands and feel like trying things in a more open way.

c) A good step in the direction of wrestling or free sparring? So much time is invested in playing the game but so little is invested in testing what should be there.

Don't get me wrong - push hand patterns are a wonderful excercise. Just not the only exercise & not a replacement for free sparring.

[wayne hansen]

I think what he means by shoving hands is people staying locked in the front stance
No one would do this in wrestling or sparing certainally not boxing

[BruceP]

Sounds kinda like the second 30 minutes of Properly Structured Sparring

[charles]

So to summarize my questions;

a) who came up with this: Bill
b) whats the point: to "win"
c) where to place it in value-order starting from a basic ting jin exercise and single hand push hands and ending with free-step free-form push hands? It has none.

As you stated: Shoving hands isn't even really sparring or judo or practicing techniques so I do not even view it as a form of free-form push hands. It's just two people shoving each other.

[cloudz]

I think it's a good basic drill, probably made better if you differentiate out attacking and defending, and or even using a wall.(see clip below)
But each to their own, but when I hear things like "no ting jin", I have to question what that's based on.
Sure 'shoving' can come into it, but that doesn't mean there can't be much more being learned about and trained.
There's a fair list of attributes and skills that I think can be addressed and developed to some degree or other.
BUT it's just a few variations of a drill we're talking about here, people in taiji either make it bigger than it is or develop some kind of hate for it that's irrational really.

It's all so typical of taiji isn't it. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater or biting your nose off to spite your face, pick either. These drill types can act as a good bridge between p/h patterns and stand up grappling and then later san shou; shoves can become strikes.

Dr. Tao teaching a form of it ..

[windwalker]

not a big fan of whats called push hands as commonly taught.

As to why it changed in to for some a "free-from shoving hands" , I would look no further then competition as to why, how, and what happened.
What is essentially and exercise used to develop unique skill sets was turned into a competitive event
with all the attendant rules, regulations and unspoken assumptions.

Many seem to view taiji as some type of stand up grappling, and then ask about striking, and kicking, which most styles have
but maybe are not known or emphasized due to the focus on push hands as a competitive event.

[cloudz]

there's nothing wrong with training a component of the total. Why write off one part of taiji because so many are ignorant and useless with another?
that is exactly biting your nose to spite your face

If you can't handle some pushing and shoving without becoming total shit, then what can it possibly be good for.
And the chances of the skills and attributes working against punches and kicks are less so and ever diminishing.

Now, whilst I'm not as in love with this guy as he is with himself, his push hands skills hold up well..
But it does go to show that you can achieve something good, there are loads of people that have developed good skill and attributes (not just in co operative work) through this type of training. No one can change my mind about that, because it's simply true. Like it or not.

[windwalker]

Why would anybody want to handle those doing push hands to me seems misplaced why anybody wouldn't think that Push Hands is not a skilled skillset unto Its own is misleading.

If one wants to win at Push Hands they need to practice it if one wants to have usage of their skill-set in a fighting environment they need to practice it.

One can win in push Hands or survive in fighting, depends on the training and focus.

[charles]

there's nothing wrong with training a component of the total.

There is nothing wrong with that.

Why write off one part of taiji because so many are ignorant and useless with another?

Who is writing off what? And are they writing it off because "so many are ignorant and useless with another" part of Taijiquan? I'm not sure what the connection is between writing something off and being "ignorant and useless with another" part.

If you can't handle some pushing and shoving without becoming total shit, then what can it possibly be good for.

I don't know what "without becoming a total shit" means? You get angry? You punch the guy in the face? You injure his shoving arm? is that "becoming a total shit"?

What is the "it" in "what can it possibly be good for"? Are you stating that what Taijiquan is "good for" is not becoming a "total shit" if someone pushes or shoves you?

And the chances of the skills and attributes working against punches and kicks are less so and ever diminishing.

What "skills and attributes" are you referring to that have little chance of working against punches and kicks? The question of why they are "ever diminishing" is a different issue.

Now, whilst I'm not as in love with this guy as he is with himself, his push hands skills hold up well..

"Hold up well" as what or when? A knife fight? Against a gun? Against a bunch of gang members wanting to kill him? Or against a friendly exchange with rules? Or....?

But it does go to show that you can achieve something good, there are loads of people that have developed good skill and attributes (not just in co operative work) through this type of training. No one can change my mind about that, because it's simply true. Like it or not.

If, by "this type of training", you mean push hands practice, in general, sure, one can develop some skills and "attributes". If you mean just shoving back and forth, less so, and different skills.



Whenever I see fixed step "competition" push hands I'm always reminded of a Netflix ad that was on TV. The ad shows two parents and their 10-year old boy watching a western movie. In the movie there is the white-hatted good-guy cowboy fist fighting against several black-hatted bad-guy cowboys. One of the bad guys is - in true Hollywood style - punched, falls through the balcony railing and lands on a table in the saloon. After sufficient time of the fist fighting, the 10-year-old watching the movie says to his parents, "They know they have guns, don't they?", referring to the fact that all of the cowboys are sporting holsters with guns in them, but instead are punching it out.

That's how I feel about much of fixed step push hands: it has its value early on it practice, but quickly becomes very limited, denying many of the "realistic" tools and skills one would want to develop and rely upon.

[BruceP]

cloudz and windwalker nailed it in those last few posts.

The Properly Structured Sparring has that kind of work as one of the first drills. It lets 'attacker' and 'defender' work with structure as they currently know it and are able to apply it. Shoving is one of the base forms of aggression in lots of situations and it lays into one's innate understanding of their own structure well enough that being manhandled can be managed while the defender works up a 'plan'.

[wayne hansen]

The shoves in the dr Tao clip just show low quality
They get into the position to push with a little skill but just use premature ejaculation
The guy with the Mohawk may have some skill but I can't tell due to his opponents
Each stage of pushing is to gain a different skill set
The only competitive pushing competition should be total freestyle
It is like scrubs in rugby league these days no one pushes they just except that who puts the ball in wins
Every now and then one team will push and win the scrum
It is just a cheap shot
They have broken the contract
You either compeat for the ball on all occasions or don't
Those who win these pushing contests are usually the ones with the greatest desire
The skills they develop might just be the skills that get you killed against a guy with a knife

[Niall Keane]

https://www.facebook.com/neilrosiaktrai ... 901262416/

the above links to Neil Rosiak's class in London. They are training fixed step free style here.

And here is seme of Neil's students in moving step in competition just this past weekend:

https://www.facebook.com/neilrosiaktrai ... 299811308/

There's quite a lot to see in these clips, for those with eyes to see. lots of building up pressure and releasing, leading the opponent to the wrong direction of force, to end up exploiting it with minimum effort. Look at the comp clips, now where as the inexperienced will see "brute force", those of you with some understanding will see opponents attempts being neutralized, and locked up at times to gain the time for listening and then setting up a trap so ... four ounces can be used....
Other times the response is immediate...
Direction is changed immediately when things fail, and in unexpected ways that empty the opponents power, or use it against them.

The fixed step should demonstrate the subtle, there's not much hopping back massive waste of time pushes, there is plenty of unbalancing, both with pushes and with releasing grabs... watch the arms - how they also guard against strikes while adhering...

There are 9 drills and 3 freestyle formats in our style, so we understand the value of all of them. For sure playing at EITHER without understanding their uses is a waste of time... but I don't like the attitude of this thread name... it kind of implies that freestyle is of no use? That would be a grave mistake!