Free-form Shoving Hands

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby Appledog on Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:05 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:53 am

You were already warned if you can't see the skill it is your lack of understanding
That's why I didn't reply
Everyone will know what a bum I am
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby RobP3 on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:25 am

Appledog wrote:
How come I never saw ma yueliang do this? There are dozens of films of him pushing hands with people. How come no one was ever able to brace against him like in all these clips?


Would be interesting to see one of these high level people in a low level shoving match. They should dominate it easily, right?
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby cloudz on Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:47 am

I don't know about Ma Yueh Liang, but video of name teachers from the mainland can be observed in this clip. Some very well known and respected eg. Liu Chengde is it? (the below is one of a series) You're a Chen style guy so his footage should be of interest to you Appledog. Do and train what you will, but if you don't train your push hands skills & attributes against types of resistence, whatever format you chose, how are they going to improve in live environments. The answer is obvious, and that's all anyone really need know or understand: IF you're asking me.

Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:30 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby cloudz on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:57 am

Charles, I appreciate your reply. As long as people are happy with their training it's none of my business what they do or don't. I share my opinion and thoughts and that's all it is, take it or leave it. My reply might have in mind a few posts and comments made here, none yours that I can specifically recall. Though saying that I though "just shoving" was something of an over simplicfication on your part, it could be viewed as condescension. It's hardly uncommon in Taiji, so I apologise if that's an innacurate perception on my part. Anyway here are some replies to things you raised.


charles wrote:


Who is writing off what? And are they writing it off because "so many are ignorant and useless with another" part of Taijiquan? I'm not sure what the connection is between writing something off and being "ignorant and useless with another" part.


There's no need to make this more difficult or confusing.. Windwalker brought up the point about this kind of competition and stated that he thinks people should be concerned about pugilism/ punching kickinf/ NHB - or whatever. I was replying to that. Writing off is a figure of speach. Read his post again; "brush off", "write off" "think less of"; characterize it however you like, the meaning doesn't change. In other words he's trying to tell me/us/you that because there's no punching and kicking, he doesn't see the value or point to it (competition pushing formats/ competitions). I am not making the connection; someone else is using one thing to "argue" against the usefullness of another thing. It seems pretty clear to me, go back and read the post before mine please.

cloudz wrote:If you can't handle some pushing and shoving without becoming total shit, then what can it possibly be good for.


charles wrote:I don't know what "without becoming a total shit" means? You get angry? You punch the guy in the face? You injure his shoving arm? is that "becoming a total shit"?


Well thanks for misquoting me. I didn't say "a total shit", it's right there in front of you in your own post: "without becoming total shit". I'm talking about ability. I'm saying if your tai chi skills fail you and you can't deal with it in the way you think you should; with your tai chi training and principles in mind etc. If you can't use it in that environment in those rulesets (fixed/moving step), then what ?

charles wrote:What is the "it" in "what can it possibly be good for"? Are you stating that what Taijiquan is "good for" is not becoming a "total shit" if someone pushes or shoves you?


I'm pretty sure i'm speaking English FFS. The it is push hands training. And it's not "a total shit", I'm meaning you/your skills/ability becoming shit. ie. not working.

cloudz wrote:And the chances of the skills and attributes working against punches and kicks are less so and ever diminishing.


charles wrote:What "skills and attributes" are you referring to that have little chance of working against punches and kicks? The question of why they are "ever diminishing" is a different issue.


the ones you get from push hands training. Do i really have to list some for you, really ??

cloudz wrote:Now, whilst I'm not as in love with this guy as he is with himself, his push hands skills hold up well..

charles wrote:"Hold up well" as what or when? A knife fight? Against a gun? Against a bunch of gang members wanting to kill him? Or against a friendly exchange with rules? Or....?


No.. are you purposely trying to be a tool. I didn't have you down for that.. Anyway, against his opponent in the clip, in that environment, against someone allowed to do the same back. Against a resisting person rather than a fixed pattern/ choreography. The skills and attributes and principles we asccociate with taiji form and push hands can and should be transferable. that doesn't mean everyone looks great and has the ideal response or action all the time. Rather obviously.


cloudz wrote:But it does go to show that you can achieve something good, there are loads of people that have developed good skill and attributes (not just in co operative work) through this type of training. No one can change my mind about that, because it's simply true. Like it or not.


charles wrote:If, by "this type of training", you mean push hands practice, in general, sure, one can develop some skills and "attributes". If you mean just shoving back and forth, less so, and different skills.


If you only do co-operative push hands patterns, you won't be able to use much of it against a resisting opponent. You'll be capable of more if you include non co operative work which is what we are talking about. Much more in my opinion, it's really a no brainer for me and has been for some time.

I'm not and never say one or other. I do co operative patterns and drills, as well as some unco operative drills and up to less restrictive grappling that you don't find in TCC comps. Upto san shou/ sanda. But this isn't really about me.



Whenever I see fixed step "competition" push hands I'm always reminded of a Netflix ad that was on TV. The ad shows two parents and their 10-year old boy watching a western movie. In the movie there is the white-hatted good-guy cowboy fist fighting against several black-hatted bad-guy cowboys. One of the bad guys is - in true Hollywood style - punched, falls through the balcony railing and lands on a table in the saloon. After sufficient time of the fist fighting, the 10-year-old watching the movie says to his parents, "They know they have guns, don't they?", referring to the fact that all of the cowboys are sporting holsters with guns in them, but instead are punching it out.

That's how I feel about much of fixed step push hands: it has its value early on it practice, but quickly becomes very limited, denying many of the "realistic" tools and skills one would want to develop and rely upon.


Train how you think is best for you. I like to keep these drills as it keeps a focus on a certain set of skills and attributes I think are at the core of TCC. However that doesn't stop me doing other things that use other tools.

You're really doing the same thing as WW now. Just because you think you'll just throw a punch or whatever other tool you have in mind this is" lesser" in some way shape or form. . But I think you're wrong, these things lie at the heart of what makes tai chi tai chi, so unless you get more specific I can't possibly agree to what you are trying to say with that nice story..

You know when you do what you need to, this all goes away and there's nothing to worry or argue about. Most people (in TCC) don't spar or test properly, don't follow a progression or a system that has all they need to be proficient. That's whypeople talk in terms of "limited". Well if you do all you need to what's the limit? It's where
you've set it for yourself. Of course any one drill is limited. Boxing on it's own is limited, likewise BJJ and I could go on and on about rulesets or drills having limits. That's just stating the obvious I would have thought.

I also think that too much of any one drill or other can create issues at times, and some formats, more than others, can create challenges in the bigger picture. I'm also of the opinion that the benefits outway any negatives quite easily. And they also provide the opportunity to work on oneself to overcome the issues and challenges, opportunities for alternatives and 'workarounds' to come into ones training system. These are and should be part of bigger systems that provide further tools etc. arguing against them on the point they are limited is to miss that (part of a larger system) point by a country mile, don't you think.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:30 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby robert on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:33 am

RobP3 wrote:Would be interesting to see one of these high level people in a low level shoving match. They should dominate it easily, right?


I don't know Dr. Tao and I don't know if he is considered high level, but he has jin skills. In the first video posted you can see him using jin against someone who is pushing and shoving. The old man shows the guy in white t-shirt and shorts how to do push hands and then we see the guy pushing and shoving other people. He dominates the other students. Then around 2:30 the old man works with the guy in white shorts again and you can see that he tries to shove the old man and the old man neutralizes and pushes the other guy. The old man handles the younger guy pretty easily. It's not competition, but if those two were to compete I'd put my money on the old man.

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:52 am

To my mind we can simplify the function of push-hands, in the context of Taiji training, to the development of Zhuo (adherence). Does the external shape matter so very much? Neither a single shape nor a multitude of shapes and forms can replace the essential practice of Zhuo. What does it mean? In short, power goes through the contact point, power is not from the contact point. Meaning, one can be certain that the hands that touch are not hands that push, that the "push" comes from any where and everywhere except those hands. It means, that when you throw a punch the power comes from anywhere and everywhere but certainly not from that fist. It means where ever the opponent touches become dead and everywhere else comes alive. It means being able to transfer energy through strike and touch by distinguishing the contacting part from the power generating parts. Your power has to become indirect, always moving through the contact never coming from the contact. The whole of Taiji concepts is wrapped up in this phenomena, the energy transfer, the yin/yang separation, one part acting on the other. My body acts on my fist/ my fist is dead/ my dead fist acts on my opponent with the power of my whole body. Active/ passive/ active. There is power transfer through a connection which is created through a separation.

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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:36 am

There's no need to make this more difficult or confusing.. Windwalker brought up the point about this kind of competition and stated that he thinks people should be concerned about pugilism/ punching kickinf/ NHB - or whatever. I was replying to that. Writing off is a figure of speach. Read his post again; "brush off", "write off" "think less of"; characterize it however you like, the meaning doesn't change. In other words he's trying to tell me/us/you that because there's no punching and kicking, he doesn't see the value or point to it (competition pushing formats/ competitions). I am not making the connection; someone else is using one thing to "argue" against the usefullness of another thing. It seems pretty clear to me, go back and read the post before mine please.


To be clear.

This is what I wrote:

"not a big fan of whats called push hands as commonly taught.

As to why it changed in to for some a "free-from shoving hands" , I would look no further then competition as to why, how, and what happened.
What is essentially and exercise used to develop unique skill sets was turned into a competitive event
with all the attendant rules, regulations and unspoken assumptions.

Many seem to view taiji as some type of stand up grappling, and then ask about striking, and kicking, which most taiji styles have
but maybe are not known or emphasized due to the focus on push hands as a competitive event."

I would look no further then competition


The competitive aspects IMO/IME have changed many aspects of how taiji is thought of and used, inviting the many comparisons between what is called push hands and other things ie wrestling, grappling ect. along with the consistent questioning of why it doesn't have this or that and people trying to make into something that historically it never was.

It is IMO/IME a training tool designed to train and develop certain skill sets unique to taiji.
If anyone finds different or feels different about "their" practice
its their practice something I don't for the most part care to comment about...
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby BruceP on Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:47 am

Chuang_Tzu wrote:When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets - He is out of his mind!
His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him. He cares. He thinks more of winning than of shooting- And the need to win drains him of power


No Neutrality, no tai chi.

Whenever I've introduced the drills that involve shoving and playing with structure to 'beginners',( or any drill for that matter) there's never an explanation of its purpose ("What's this for").

"What's this for" is for people who can't stop mistaking the technique for the goal.
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby charles on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:02 pm

cloudz wrote:Though saying that I though "just shoving" was something of an over simplicfication on your part, it could be viewed as condescension.


The OP made it pretty clear, I thought, that he does not consider "just shoving" to be part of a traditional push hands curriculum. I understood that to mean that his discussion is about "just shoving", not about push hands, itself.


Well thanks for misquoting me. I didn't say "a total shit"


My apologies. For whatever reason, I mis-read it multiple times.

I'm saying if your tai chi skills fail you and you can't deal with it in the way you think you should; with your tai chi training and principles in mind etc. If you can't use it in that environment in those rulesets (fixed/moving step), then what ?


In the context of the OP's discussion, I take that to mean that if someone shoves you, you should be able to use "tai chi training" to counter it within the rules provided by fixed and moving step push hands.

My disagreement is that if someone shoves me, why would I want to limit my response to not moving my feet (i.e. the rules of fixed step push hands)? One Taiji push hands tournament champion used to win by bending backwards like a limbo dancer. He won, staying within the rules of not moving his feet, but it has little to do with traditional push hands skills. He went on to teach others how to "win" in that restricted environment.

the ones you get from push hands training.


The OP started the discussion by stating that, in his opinion, "just shoving" isn't any part of push hands training. We seem to either be discussing different things - me/OP, "just shoving", you, push hands training - or disagree that "just shoving" is a desirable element of push hands training.

...against his opponent in the clip, in that environment, against someone allowed to do the same back.


Where I disagree is that I don't believe that environment has much to do with developing or testing traditional Taijiquan skills. Here's a story about Chen Fake and a famous wrestler: http://practicalmethod.com/1988/03/chen-fake/. CFK displays uncommon skills, not like those seen in the clip you posted. The obvious question, then, is what sort of training leads to CFK's type of skills? Is it two people "just shoving" each other? Should "just shoving" each other be included in a traditional push hands curriculum? That was the OP's starting point.

Against a resisting person rather than a fixed pattern/ choreography.


Fixed pattern push hands can be done with a resisting person, and should be at some stage of one's training. Later, it should include free interaction with a resisting person as well. Should that training include two people "just shoving" each other? Where's the "jin" skills in that?

The skills and attributes and principles we asccociate with taiji form and push hands can and should be transferable.


The skills should be. The question is, as most people are now learning them - forms and push hands - are they? How faithful to traditional training and skill development are what students are currently being taught? We all believe we're being taught - and practicing - "The Real Deal", but few of us have much in the way of "traditional" skills. Is that because we aren't doing enough "just shoving"?

If you only do co-operative push hands patterns, you won't be able to use much of it against a resisting opponent. You'll be capable of more if you include non co operative work which is what we are talking about. Much more in my opinion, it's really a no brainer for me and has been for some time.


I agree. Where we disagree is in what form that non-coperative activity should take.

Just because you think you'll just throw a punch or whatever other tool you have in mind this is" lesser" in some way shape or form.


Years ago, I met a Yang style practitioner. He'd take all-comers, all styles, anything they wanted to do, any type of attack, any amount of force. As soon as they touched him, he completely and entirely controlled them. Attacking him further wasn't possible. It took all of their effort just to remain on their feet, something he allowed them to do. When he got tired of manipulating their balance, he'd allow them to slump gently to the floor.

I met a Chen style practitioner. I watched him toy with an acknowledged Baguazhang teacher. He used little effort, but tied the teacher up in knots. The teacher couldn't do anything to him.

They didn't get that way by engaging in shoving matches with an uncooperative partner, while not allowed to move their feet.


arguing against them on the point they are limited is to miss that (part of a larger system) point by a country mile, don't you think.


In my opinion, what misses the point is focusing on practices that don't lead one to a set of desired skills. I'm not too interested in learning to use brute force to shove people. I'm not saying that shoving people doesn't work, I'm saying it isn't the skill set that I'm interested in. I'm not advocating that people endlessly practice choreographed exercises with cooperative partners. I am advocating that there is much beyond brute force shoving in an environment with an artificial set of rules that reinforce "winning" by rewarding people for doing the antithesis of the skills one states one is trying to develop.
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Re: Free-form Shoving Hands

Postby cloudz on Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:15 am

I get and agree how for example focusing too much or only on say fixed step as well as focusing too much on winning and competing in that specific format can take you in the wrong direction for what TCC seeks, asks for or can we say demands.. I've spoke about this kind of thing before and i'll try to dig it up as I don't think I have the will to articulate it from 'scratch' so to speak.. But generally: That's why it's vital to see it as a smaller part of a bigger whole, like using a microscope and seeing a different landscape. Without the moving step and san shou to privide context and perspective it becomes a thing unto itself and I think we both can agree that's not desirable.

When I have more time, maybe I'll shoot the breeze with you on some of the things you raised directly. But each specialisation format be it any form of wrestling, bjj/submissions, striking etc. Can lead to poor habit forming when suddenly the ruleset or format is switched up.

Recognising limitations and dangers in training should be standard. There's things every format produces that opens doors or vulnarability to something not included and would otherwise be exploited. It's about recognition and mitigation in many respects. Or you move to a more integrated MMA type system that takes into account the vulnaribilities of specialisations as well as self protection demands and all that.

To sum up I do think some of the concerns are valid but can be mitigated with a reasonable and well rounded approach.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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