Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:36 pm

Why is that? Is it that the form looks too subtle?

Here is a repulse monkey video that includes a leg/foot lever as he steps back (about 0:38):



But when one tries to smooth out the form, it doesn't seem to be there in the form. Then when you look at his application, it seems clear it is in the form. Edit: but his footwork is reversed...

?
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:35 pm

everything wrote:But when one tries to smooth out the form, it doesn't seem to be there in the form.

My wife always asks me, "Are you thinking about me every single second? I always say yes. She then said, "I have called your name 3 times. Your eyes are still on your computer screen."

"Intend" is the key. People have said that a

- step can be a kick.
- lotus kick can be a sweep.
- 7 star stance can be a shin bite.
- cloud hand can be a body control.
- ...

If your "intend" is not there, you can't map your body move into that particular application.

In that clip, he used 切(Qie) - Front cut as counter. When his opponent puts leg behind his leg, he steps back his leg and take his opponent down. If he has to use this move for offense, he has to

- put his left foot in front of his opponent right foot.
- move his right leg in a half right curve and land behind his opponent's right foot (otherwise his right leg will hit on the front of his opponent's right leg). This 1/2 arc move is the key for 切(Qie) - Front cut
- ...

Both are missing in the Taiji "step back repulse monkey" move. There are just too many missing element there.

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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:44 pm

I guess the question is why.

- isn't specialized in throws
- interested in other things
- something got lost over time
- other
- all of the above
- etc
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:17 pm

everything wrote:I guess the question is why.

If I have to add "切(Qie) - diagonal cut" into my Taiji form, I will

1. Turn my body 45 degree to my left - the correct diagonal cutting angle.
2. Push my right palm onto the ground - develop pushing power. This kind of flexibility requirement is very challenged.
3. Kick right leg back as high as possible - develop leg cutting power. You do need to stretch your leg well for this.

This way, not only the form is fun and challenged to train, the future generation will know exactly how this move should be used.

Image
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:31 am

Why not, John? I won't think any less of you or your Taijiquan if you do, nor should it matter what I think. The most important thing is that it works.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:54 am

I would like to do that exercise. I'm building up to single leg Romanian deadlift for now:

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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby robert on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:51 am

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:"Intend" is the key. People have said that a

- step can be a kick.
- lotus kick can be a sweep.
- 7 star stance can be a shin bite.
- cloud hand can be a body control.
- ...

If your "intend" is not there, you can't map your body move into that particular application.

To some extent I agree. When you're doing a form there should be an application that guides your intention. Shuang bai lian (double white lotus) maps to a leg sweep.



But the form is for conditioning the body. The form teaches you body mechanics and conditions the body and from what I've seen the applicaions take a back seat to that aspect when you're doing the form. You're shown some applications so you understand neijin and why the form is the way it is and generally after you learn some push hands you really start to learn applications. Any posture usually has a number of applications.

Here is an example of xie xing.

Notice there is a hip throw in there.

Jīn gāng dǎo duì (buddha's warrior attendant pounds mortar) has a couple blocks (ward off) in the beginning so you start off learning to block, but you don't just block so you're also shown a take down - that take down doesn't appear in the form (it might appear later in dao juan hong). The form is not a catalog of taiji applications it is a training tool that teaches you how to use neijin and how to apply neijin to fighting, but it is only the tip of the iceburg. I did a six hour workshop on chen applications and we just covered jīn gāng dǎo duì - one posture in the form.

FWIW
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby Steve James on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:03 pm

In general, by "throw," I think John W means an application where the opponent goes over the practitioner's body -and even better, over the head. Or, when the opponent's head ends up under his feet.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:57 pm

robert wrote: I did a six hour workshop on chen applications and we just covered jīn gāng dǎo duì - one posture in the form.

I also did a 6 hours workshop just cover "foot sweep". The "foot sweep' can mat into 35 different applications such as:

1. Foot landing kick
2. Arm pulling, leading leg blocking kick
3. Neck mopping kick
4. Shoulder pulling kick
5. Elbow locking kick
6. Leg smash kick
7. Reverse head lock kick
8. Sleeve push/pull kick
9. Waist lifting kick
10. Under hook leg spring kick
11. 3 points step kick
12. Head leaning knee seize kick
13. Leg escape kick against kick
14. Arm locking kick against arm locking kick
15. ...

Each sweep require different contact points and different set up.

The question is: There is no single "foot sweep solo training" that can map into all foot sweep applications. Even if you just try to map "1 principle" into "1 application", you still have to add in the

- foot work,
- set up,
- ...

robert wrote:But the form is for conditioning the body. The form teaches you body mechanics and conditions the body and from what I've seen the applicaions take a back seat to that aspect when you're doing the form.

It doesn't matter how you may treat your form training. It's the final skill that you want to develop. The question is which develop method is better?

- Use concrete drill to develop technique.
- Use abstract form to develop technique.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby robert on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:02 pm

johnwang wrote:The question is: There is no single "foot sweep solo training" that can map into all foot sweep applications. Even if you just try to map "1 principle" into "1 application", you still have to add in the

- foot work,
- set up,
- ...

I agree, but there is more to taiji than doing forms ;)
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:57 pm

I remember reading an interview with Sophia Delza where she said something like
Before we had the telescope we looked into the night sky and saw a certain number of stars
As each telescope got stronger we saw more stars,so it is with tai chi training
You don't need to look outside tai chi to find throws just look deeper into tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:09 pm

wayne hansen wrote:You don't need to look outside tai chi to find throws just look deeper into tai chi

I used to think that I have learned all the kicks from my long fist system. One day my TKD friend show me the side kick by

1. raise up knee.
2. parallel low leg to the ground.
3. pull knee back.
4. kick out.

I then realized that my long fist side kick training was not in enough detail. The long fist is a kick/punch system. The TKD is a pure kick system that specialize in kicks. If I want to train the kicking skill, I'll pick up TKD than long fist.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:06 pm

that is the logic behind mma. it's good logic.

OTOH I think it's ok to learn an art that isn't "complete" or as detailed in everything, but I don't personally need "completeness".

It is a problem if someone wants to insist an art is "complete" or wants to pass down a "complete" art in as much detail as possible. Still, MA aren't exactly going to become lost (maybe TJQ will) to humans, so why worry. We could effectively lose all books and videos and MA would not be lost. Even if it were lost, it would be reinvented/rediscovered. The same is not true for things like rocket ships, AI, automobile manufacturing, etc.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:35 pm

everything wrote:I think it's ok to learn an art that isn't "complete" or as detailed in everything, but I don't personally need "completeness".

It will take one more than his life time to learn the complete throwing art system. There exist no single person on this planet who can say that he has learned the complete throwing art.

The "completeness" is not the issue. The best training method is the issue. My long fist system has roundhouse kick. The day that I had learned the

- TKD roundhouse kick, I had replaced my long fist roundhouse kick training method by the TKD roundhouse kick training method.
- MT roundhouse kick, I had replaced my TKD roundhouse kick training method by the MT roundhouse kick training method.

The reason that I like the MT roundhouse kick training method is because it emphasizes on the

- downward force.
- 180 degree whole body rotation.

It's the roundhouse kick downward force plus the 180 degree body rotation that can generate the maximum amount of power. when it lands on your opponent's head that can knock him out. Both the long fist and TKD method that only address the upward force without enough body rotation are just not good enough.

The MA skill is just like the programming language. When Java programming language came out, it had replaced all the other programming languages. The Java programming language does not require re-compilation that no other "older" programming languages (such as C, Fortran, Algo, Pascal, Snobol, Lisp, ...) can compete with.

I don't think MA training should be like marriage that you have to be with your other half for the rest of your life. If you can find a better one, replace it.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:37 pm

Makes sense. You are saying if you find a better tool, add it to your tool kit.

For me (and many people now), I like Python. Like any language it's not perfect, but it is a very good base and is fairly compact/concise. People think they need R or Scala or Java or whatever, but libraries added to Python usually does the trick pretty well.

Similarly, shuai-jiao + taiji seems like a good idea to me. One might want to add a "library" here or there.
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