Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby Subitai on Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:07 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, how do people practice tcc throws without studying tcc falling and getting up? Are there "tcc" methods for those aspects?



Well, in my old school they would put out mats and everyone that would be thrown had to practice some break falls before they could participate.

- The standard type stuff works: Start on your butt and fall backwards (with the dispersing arm slaps). Then do it to the sides of your body.
- Next you're on your feet crouching (a bit higher) and you do it all over again.
- Progression, ect ect.

Or you could just go full on Chen village style...learn as a child to fall and kick ass in the dirt. They don't care.

Other method; one time I was at school that had those Really THICK gymnastic Puffy landing pads. (i.e. about 20" thick).
- We stand in front of the big pad and practice "slant flying" each other backwards onto that pad.
- It was good for people who suck at break-fall or kinda older and don't want to risk getting hurt.
- you might be teaching a seminar and a person wants to know and feel what the throw is like, but they have Zero experience in falling...a big pad like this helps. Lots of laughing going on.

Some traditional moves (from Yang style for example) that translate into throws that I like are:
- the obvious slant flying / parting horse mane type moves
- Twist step left and right just before brush Knee continues into a nice throw
- embrace tiger return to mountain, is also a step behind and grab with both arms around your opponents legs or torso and throw him back.
- snake creeps low can become a fireman's carry ( though I don't favor that as much) :) It can also reach through and pick up your opponents leg (single leg) for a throw. It can also become like a wedge / trip through the legs as well. I very much prefer these "Wedging" / "Tripping" type moves over full on throws.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:12 pm

The Tai Chi Fast Wrestling we practiced in our training group covered all types of recovery. Tumbling, falling, get-ups, and such. Even the dreaded surrendering of structure and collapsing structure.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:19 pm

GrahamB wrote:
You're right. If you clicked that link and read his article the CIA would know where you lived and evil web pixies would eat your face for sure - better not click it. Just in case.


Project much? Click-baiting is a sneaky revenue generator for blogs and such. Like your recent, generously titled article about the Millwall guy. You invite others to join you for some basking in reflected glory. Didn't click that bait, either.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:45 pm

marvin8 wrote:OMG, master Marquez does this all the time, too! Brings back memories of Master Marquez vs Master Pacqiao 3


Lots of old-skool boxers learned to pin the opp's foot. It's tactically limited in boxing but it serves to upset rhythm and attack the psyche as the opp now has 2 things to worry about when the advancing step comes. Some guys just resign themselves to their foot getting pinned and work up counters to discourage it.

It used to get a point deduction when I competed as a kid.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:01 pm

marvin8 wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
BruceP wrote:stand on his foot

don't know any Chinese characters for that one

OMFG, my master did that to me all the time! Good one! I'm too nice. Totally forgot about it.. It's called 踩脚. ;D

OMG, master Marquez does this all the time, too! Brings back memories of Master Marquez vs Master Pacqiao 3, where Master Marquez made $5 million, as the challenger in this fight: :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIgRgw7IaFM

Nice. Thought that was illegal in boxing, but makes sense that people would learn how to use it. The footwork of XYLHQ is based on this concept, though with the heel.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:07 pm

To you making fun of me using the term master, you are quite ignorant of the meaning. When I became a disciple of my master he took me in as a son. I ate there, he taught me how to cook when I got divorced, spent festivals there, has been teaching me everything he knows (including how to play Chinese chess and calligraphy),was a great friend to me in tough times, introduced me to all kinds of other masters to learn from - all for free. He's not just a teacher to me. You can make fun of it, but he's old school and this is the culture. I owe him a great debt of gratitude.

Not to mention the fact that he is a badarse motherfucker.. :P
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:09 pm

I wish that I knew what you lot were talking about with diagonally flying and brushing knees..

From what I've seen breakfalls don't seem to be taught much in TCMA. Most of the throws aren't designed to let you fall gracefully either...

I liked the article. The author makes a good point. I didn't mind clicking the "bait" at all. What's wrong with generating some traffic for a fellow martial artist??? It's just a fucking click and doesn't cost me anything. With the extra money they may be able to purchase better equipment for students or be happier in life (thus teaching better). It's a win-win situation..
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby Steve James on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:12 pm

Well, ask John W., falls are taught in shuai jiao.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2STm0SZ5YY

I was really asking, since the subject was tcc throws, were there any specifically tcc falling techniques? Would they be internal aopt external?
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby nicklinjm on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:19 pm

Maarten - in the taiji I used the practice one of the standard applications for brush knee twist step was an outside sweeping throw very similar to Judo's Osotogari, if that helps.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:42 pm

at about 1:17 is a brush knee, but feet are reversed from the usual form



I think of osoto gari or any throw with one arm pulling a limb and one arm pushing somewhere else with optional foot/leg block/reap as very similar in both what you do and the movement of the person thrown. in taiji terms it is combining pluck and push to form splitting energy.

diagonal fly is that sideways entry, diagonal arm against chest one. Machida does a kinda similar karate throw a lot. from a taiji view, it is kind of kao in 2 directions to form split.
Last edited by everything on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:51 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I wish that I knew what you lot were talking about with diagonally flying and brushing knees.

By using Taiji "diagonal fly", if you throw your opponent

- backward, it's 撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting.
- side way, it's 靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze.

By using Taiji "brush knee", if you use right leg to hook your opponent

1st side - left leg from outside, it's 削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking.
2nd side - left leg from inside, it's 合(He) - Inner hook.
3rd side - right leg from inside, it's 刀(Dao) - Inner sickle.
4th side - right leg from outside, it's 切(Qie) - Front cut.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:57 pm

everything wrote:at about 1:17 is a brush knee, but feet are reversed from the usual form

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3lyzvg8wus

I think of osoto gari or any throw with one arm pulling a limb and one arm pushing somewhere else with optional foot/leg block/reap as very similar in both what you do and the movement of the person thrown. in taiji terms it is combining pluck and push to form splitting energy.

diagonal fly is that sideways entry, diagonal arm against chest one. Machida does a kinda similar karate throw a lot. from a taiji view, it is kind of kao in 2 directions to form split.


A gen comment not directed at the practitioners in the clip or the poster.

There seems to be certain assumptions made within a given context.

Is this show how to throw some one in a push hands setting?
Would this set up work in other settings?

It does seem effective if one is attacked by someone else using push hands.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:58 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:To you making fun of me using the term master, you are quite ignorant of the meaning. When I became a disciple of my master he took me in as a son. I ate there, he taught me how to cook when I got divorced, spent festivals there, has been teaching me everything he knows (including how to play Chinese chess and calligraphy),was a great friend to me in tough times, introduced me to all kinds of other masters to learn from - all for free. He's not just a teacher to me. You can make fun of it, but he's old school and this is the culture. I owe him a great debt of gratitude.

Not to mention the fact that he is a badarse motherfucker.. :P

Sorry, had a couple of drinks and being an arse. :-[ No disrespect to you or your teacher is intended. Although, I may disagree with some of your views on what MMA doesn't do, etc.

Here is what some people refer to as diagonal fly. But, Lyoto Machida doesn't call it tai chi. Different styles are going to have similar techniques:
Image
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:05 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
I liked the article. The author makes a good point. I didn't mind clicking the "bait" at all. What's wrong with generating some traffic for a fellow martial artist??? It's just a fucking click and doesn't cost me anything. With the extra money they may be able to purchase better equipment for students or be happier in life (thus teaching better). It's a win-win situation..



Well, it aint like any click-bait Graham posts is going to be telling me something I didn't already know.

His blogheaded applying tai chi classics in mma , or whatever it was, is stuff I've talked about since the days of EF. The first thread I started on EF was titled; "Do The Principles Work For You?" - asking if the tai chi principles were directly applied to peoples' sparring in general, and MMA style sparring, and if so, how? Graham and some other published IMA author dude mocked and laughed at the notion with Graham telling me that one day, I'd figure it out. In that thread, he cut and pasted some article written by his teacher - some guy named Rand - in giving me his, Graham's, "take on it". I knew right there that both he and the other author guy were full of shit and had no practical understanding of what I was asking about.

Most of the click-baiting blog topics I've seen posted here are topics on stuff I've been writing about on this forum since I joined.
Last edited by BruceP on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:05 pm

windwalker wrote:
everything wrote:at about 1:17 is a brush knee, but feet are reversed from the usual form

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3lyzvg8wus

I think of osoto gari or any throw with one arm pulling a limb and one arm pushing somewhere else with optional foot/leg block/reap as very similar in both what you do and the movement of the person thrown. in taiji terms it is combining pluck and push to form splitting energy.

diagonal fly is that sideways entry, diagonal arm against chest one. Machida does a kinda similar karate throw a lot. from a taiji view, it is kind of kao in 2 directions to form split.


A gen comment not directed at the practitioners in the clip or the poster.

There seems to be certain assumptions made within a given context.

Is this show how to throw some one in a push hands setting?
Would this set up work in other settings?

It does seem effective if one is attacked by someone else using push hands.


I don't know much about the video but I assume it's just light ph yes. It works fine in judo randori IME, but as you all know, setups are the difficult part. Diagonal fly is a nice thing, because it's not in judo AFAIK.

The diagonal fly sort of variation obviously works for Machida in an mma context. He has a certain setup that maybe you guys could analyze.
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