the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:23 pm**

Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

What's your favor

- XingYi throws?
- Bagua throws?
- long fist throws?
- Baji throws?
- WC throws?
- ...

IMO, this question doesn't make sense. We should start from a throw and examine whether it exists in a MA system or not.

For example, does Taiji have hip throw (the mother of all throws)?

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:39 pm**

does Taiji have hip throw

Good question. Maybe we could ask whether there's a specific form that can be used as a hip throw.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:20 pm**

Steve James wrote:
does Taiji have hip throw

Good question. Maybe we could ask whether there's a specific form that can be used as a hip throw.

Chang and Wudang PTTC practice hip throws. Some other Wu and Chen schools do that as well. Some of them use "brush knee" as an excuse.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:02 pm**

Steve James wrote:Maybe we could ask whether there's a specific form that can be used as a hip throw.

Which taiji move do you drop your head to touch your knee? I don't think there is such move in all Taiji forms.

Bao wrote: Some of them use "brush knee" as an excuse.

But "brush knee" has no intention to "touch head to the knees".

Many years ago, I told my

- MT friend that CMA has "flying knee" if you do a jump kick without kicking your leg out.
- TKD friend that CMA has "spin hook kick" if instead of doing backward floor sweep, you stand up and do that sweep.

Back then I just argued for the sake of argument. That was "CMA has everything" kind of attitude.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:15 pm**

Well, I don't think it's necessary to have a form where head touches knee in order for a tcc practitioner to use a hip throw. Ok, let's avoid the argument that anything not in a tcc form can be tcc. For one thing, there is probably nothing that some tcc person somewhere does not do. The same is true for a flying back kick.

John, does Chang tcc have a hip throw? It seems like you'd be the perfect guy to find the possibility for it in a form. Btw, yeah, someone could say that in "needle to sea bottom" the head approaches the knee. But, that is just stretching a point.) How would you incorporate different throws into your tcc?

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:52 pm**

Steve James wrote:does Chang tcc have a hip throw?

Chang Taiji does not have a hip throw.

Steve James wrote:How would you incorporate different throws into your tcc?

The answer is simple, you train the throwing art.

What I can write down on a piece paper can contain

- 62 different categories throws.
- 232 different throws technique.

For example, there are

- 35 different foot sweep.
- 32 different leg block.
- ...

The throwing art contains much more information than any particular CMA does. You learn how to throw by learning from a throwing art instead of learning from any CMA system.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:11 pm**

johnwang wrote:Which taiji move do you drop your head to touch your knee? I don't think there is such move in all Taiji forms..

. Yang Pan-hou told Wang Jiao-Yu that if he could put his chin to his toe in the chin-to-toe exercise within 100 days, he would teach Wang Jiao-Yu. And succeed Jiao-Yu did. Since Wang Jiao-Yu was a Han, Yang Pan-hou took Wang Jiao-yu as his student and trained him in the secret Guang Ping style, and made him promise not to teach this art as long as the dynasty was in power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guang_Pin ... i_ch%27uan

There may not be a movement directly, the ability was their depending on style and teacher.
If one views throwing as something to practice, many of the movements as I view them can be mapped into a throw if needed.

It might be better to discus how taiji throws are different if they are and why this is so if it is.

Once while fishing at a lake, two other martial artists hoped to push Yang in the water and ruin his reputation. Yang, sensing the attacker's intention, arched his chest, rounded his back, and executed the High Pat on Horse technique. As his back arched and head bowed, the two attackers were bounced into the water simultaneously. He then said to them that he would be easy on them today; but if they were on the ground, he would have punished them more severely. The two attackers quickly swam away.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:20 pm**

windwalker wrote: the chin-to-toe exercise ...

The chin to toe exercise is for "flexibility". It has nothing to do with "throw".

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:48 pm**

Do not confuse ability with functionality.
If one can touch their toes with their chin in this manner than any type of functionality requiring this ability to do it should be very easy should one want to practice it.

Your question related to touching one's head to ones knees in doing a throwing movement it would seem that if one could touch one's chin to toe the ability to do the throw just touching the knee would be easier.

The what how and why things are taught among various taiji Styles varies with teacher and style.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:13 pm**

The question makes sense for people who primarily study one art, or even 3 (e.g., the big 3 IMA, MT+bjj+wrestling, whatever). If a throw isn't in their study, they may or may not learn it. Then again, hip throw is good for anyone to learn and everyone should learn the basics. How many people will really learn 200-300 throws? Rousey presumably did, but she only used a few in mma. It's great if one can, but most people and most mma competitors aren't likely to do so. Usually they have a wrestling background and are already difficult to take down. It would probably be more entertaining and useful if they learned more throws from an upright position (needed for the striking), though.

Back to taijiquan, it's a pretty compact art, for better or worse. There are pros and cons to that.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:54 pm**

There are different approaches to how things are taught in different systems.

You may have heard that gongfu styles can also be divided into "closed" and "open" systems, as well as "narrow" and "wide" systems.

A "narrow" system is one that specifies a particular response for a particular attack. So for every possible attack, there is a specific response. And because there are a great many possible attacks, there are also a great may specifc techniques to counter them. With "narrow" systems, you have A LOT of techniques -- like the proverbial 108 hand techniques, for instance. A "wide" system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them. So for instance, you might only have 5 or 6 basic punches... but many "changes" associated with those punches. See also Baqua, with it's emphasis on changes.

The way to learn how to use a wide system (like White Crane) is then to gain experience with using the limited number of techniques you have available, in a wide assortment of attacks. In other words, you have to use the techniques in sparring... a lot of sparing... so you can learn how a single punch can be used against multiple attack patterns.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26046&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

Mike Staples

What JW mentioned might be classed as the narrow way, many ways and types of throws in this case.

While having a few basic movements built around a concept or idea as in taiji might be considered the wide way, depending on how one looks at it.

This is why when questions are asked about why something does not have this or that the answer might depend on how one was taught and ones view points on the art itself. IME with those I know, and those I work with taiji falls into the wide way....as such many things depend on skill, experience, ability and preference.

For some the art might be viewed within the context of grappling, throwing, or striking, all would be correct.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:14 pm**

Not all the applications are explicit in taiji. In Chen 38 I was shown a shoulder throw for shan tong bei (flash the back) - it seems like it could be used as a hip throw as well.

I was shown this using two hands, but this is the general idea.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:30 am**

windwalker wrote:
johnwang wrote:Which taiji move do you drop your head to touch your knee? I don't think there is such move in all Taiji forms..

. Yang Pan-hou told Wang Jiao-Yu that if he could put his chin to his toe in the chin-to-toe exercise within 100 days, he would teach Wang Jiao-Yu. And succeed Jiao-Yu did. Since Wang Jiao-Yu was a Han, Yang Pan-hou took Wang Jiao-yu as his student and trained him in the secret Guang Ping style, and made him promise not to teach this art as long as the dynasty was in power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guang_Pin ... i_ch%27uan

There may not be a movement directly, the ability was their depending on style and teacher.
If one views throwing as something to practice, many of the movements as I view them can be mapped into a throw if needed.

It might be better to discus how taiji throws are different if they are and why this is so if it is.

Once while fishing at a lake, two other martial artists hoped to push Yang in the water and ruin his reputation. Yang, sensing the attacker's intention, arched his chest, rounded his back, and executed the High Pat on Horse technique. As his back arched and head bowed, the two attackers were bounced into the water simultaneously. He then said to them that he would be easy on them today; but if they were on the ground, he would have punished them more severely. The two attackers quickly swam away.

Stories as the above fishing story seem to be the only evidence of not too long time ago past masters of CIMA and their pugilistic skills. I assume the above story is about Yang Chengfu, in another story where YCF was in a public bathroom and was washing his face, was sneaked up from behind by a young Wan Laisheng who pushed YCF who fell(or slipped on the wet floor, as the story was published in a Taiji magazine) to the floor while WLS quickly rushed out from the place.....When I come across such stories I wonder what they actually want to tell....However, my YTJQ teacher who also is a shuaijiao practitioner since childhood teach shuaijiao throws as applications of the Taiji form, and the way he does it it makes very much sense. And my Hunyuan Taiji teacher who doesn't teach throws per se, but does a lot of foot/leg sweeps during free push hand practice

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:08 am**

Taijiquan is probably not interesting/unique for having the largest catalog of moves, but it may be interesting to start a thread and list some techniques and the associated form name and style. There seems to be little agreement, even on RSF, on some of these, which is weird, but what probably happened to cause this problem:

- someone long ago knew some technique
- in solo practice, he did it as a form
- a lot of MAs were not "scholars" so memorized form is a way to remember and pass down things
- later people (especially in the case of TJQ) have no freaking idea what a section of form is for.
- or people with a different background see a form (a Rorschach test) and see something familiar to them, so different interpretation arises.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:44 pm**

everything wrote:Taijiquan is probably not interesting/unique for having the largest catalog of moves,...

Agree! Most of the Taiji throws such as

- 靠(Kao) - diagonal fly,
- 扣(Kou) - repulse monkey,
- 穿(Chuan) - slant body down,
- 抱(Bao) - cross hands,
- ...

all require to have both feet on the ground. You can use both arms to twist your opponent down to the ground. But if you add in a leg spring, it will be much easier. IMO, Taiji does not address the throws by using 1 rooting leg and 1 attacking leg such as:

1. 踢(Ti) - Sweep,
2. 撮(Cuo) - Scooping kick,
3. 粘(Zhan) - Sticking kick,
4. 彈(Tan) - Spring,
5. 挑(Tiao) - Hooking kick,
6. 纏(Chan) - Foot entangling,
7. 合(He) - Inner hook,
8. 撿(Jian) - Foot picking,
9. 沖(Chong) - Inner kick,
10. 掛(Gua) - Inner heel sweep,
11. 刀(Dao) - Inner sickle,
12. 撩(Liao) - Back kick,
13. 切(Qie) - Front cut,
14. 削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking,
15. 勾(Gou) - Back sickle,
16. 擓(Kuai) - Leg bending lift,
17. ...

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Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

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