the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

After reading the responses in the Taiji throw thread, I've begun to wonder if other posters here make a distinction between "shuai" and "die."

I know for a fact that some CMAists use both terms together and sometimes interchangeably when talking about throws, but in the styles I've been exposed to, they are actually two distinct categories of fighting techniques that are related but not the same.

"Shuai" is the common term that refers to throwing in general, but the lesser-known "die," which means to fall or stumble, is a term that I rarely hear in discussions. The way I was taught is that "shuai" involves throwing the opponent over your hips or back. The motion is usually large and committed, and both of the opponent's feet are lifted off the ground during the execution of a technique.

"Die," on the other hand, is best described as quick takedowns that cause the opponent to stumble and fall. It is usually done in combination with striking and trapping, which off-balance the opponent and set him up for a takedown. "Die" techniques make use of small subtle movements (such as foot trapping) and manipulation of the four limbs to achieved the desired effects. The effort required is much less compared to "shuai."

To better illustrate my points, here are two video examples of shuai vs die:

跌(Die) in SC is called 散手跤(San Shou Jiao) that you throw your opponent when "face to face". When you throw your opponent with you back touching his chest, that's called 接体跤(Jie Ti Jiao). I believe the term 跌(Die) is only used in the striking art.

Yes, I agree.

In Chinese boxing (chuan/zhang) styles, most of the throws and takedowns taught are "die" as opposed to "shuai."　I believe the main reason being throws that involve turning your back to the opponent is too risky from the point of view of a boxer.

Here's a great example of "die" from Silat. The use of subtle foot tripping and stepping in combination with hand strikes and correct body positioning make the takedowns quite effortless.

C.J.W. wrote:Yes, I agree.

In Chinese boxing (chuan/zhang) styles, most of the throws and takedowns taught are "die" as opposed to "shuai."　I believe the main reason being throws that involve turning your back to the opponent is too risky from the point of view of a boxer.

Which is why in the Taiji throw thread...I said: "I very much prefer these "Wedging" / "Tripping" type moves over full on throws."

C.J.W. wrote: turning your back to the opponent is too risky from the point of view of a boxer.

When striking is allowed, the "entering strategy" is important.

Hip throw with body turn - no entering strategy. It requires body turn (stealing step).



Hip throw without body turn. To enter through a correct angle is critical. It doesn't require body turn but just a forward step.

I define 'throws' as methods where the opponents feet leave the ground, ike throwing a ball off a cliff, and 'take downs' where their feet dont, like rolling a ball off a cliff.

C.J.W. wrote:"Shuai" is the common term that refers to throwing in general, but the lesser-known "die," which means to fall or stumble, is a term that I rarely hear in discussions. The way I was taught is that "shuai" involves throwing the opponent over your hips or back. The motion is usually large and committed, and both of the opponent's feet are lifted off the ground during the execution of a technique.

"Die," on the other hand, is best described as quick takedowns that cause the opponent to stumble and fall. It is usually done in combination with striking and trapping, which off-balance the opponent and set him up for a takedown. "Die" techniques make use of small subtle movements (such as foot trapping) and manipulation of the four limbs to achieved the desired effects. The effort required is much less compared to "shuai."

Thanks that helped clear something up for me. My old ima sifu (rip) used to show throws from shuaijiow and from his chinna/tai chi. Never at the same time. It would either be jacket on throws or taking the balance and "leading me into emptiness". These terms make sense and for all I know he could have used them in conversation and gotten lost in translation.

One thing he did a marvelous job of explaining with examples was taking balance through the body. For example grabbing him on the arm would result in him using his core (dantien) and legs to power to slightly offbalancing the person grabbing through the grabbing arm. He would use this sort of balance taking to set up for a chinna move. While the person recovered the balance they would end up supporting or falling into the chinna move. It was subtle but when he got the balance for just a second it felt like gently falling except that it usually ended with a painful lock. For me this was the difference in feeling something done as "special chinna" vs "swaijiow".

middleway wrote:I define 'throws' as methods where the opponents feet leave the ground, ike throwing a ball off a cliff, and 'take downs' where their feet dont, like rolling a ball off a cliff.

Nice one, thanks Chris am going to pinch that

Nice one, thanks Chris am going to pinch that

Glad you like

johnwang wrote:When striking is allowed, the "entering strategy" is important.

Hip throw without body turn. To enter through a correct angle is critical. It doesn't require body turn but just a forward step.

That's a nice throw right there. IMO, some of the techniques found in sanshou-jiao tend to blur the line between "shuai" and "die" (based on my definition) in that they use strikes and subtle movements to set up a throw, but finish with a large move that lifts the opponent off the ground.

But off the same side entry, I'd prefer to step in, trap the foot, and make the opponent fall -- like the technique shown in this clip from .14 to .17

Die may only require 2 points contact while most of the throw require 3 points contact.

Example of 2 points contact throw are:

1. single leg - push shoulder, pull leg (use 2 hands).
2. foot sweep - push neck down, sweep leg up (use 1 hand and 1 leg).
3. shoulder strike - leg control, shoulder strike (use 1 leg and 1 shoulder).
4. ...

Example of 3 points contact throw are:

1. hip throw - leading arm pull, waist lift, hip strike (use 2 hands and hip).
2. leg lift - leading arm pull, back arm under hook lift, back upper thigh lift (use 2 hands and 1 leg).
3. twist and spring - leading arm pull, neck push, back leg spring (use 2 hands and 1 leg).
4. ...

C.J.W. wrote:After reading the responses in the Taiji throw thread, I've begun to wonder if other posters here make a distinction between "shuai" and "die."

Almost everyone does.

Throws vs. takedowns.