Cailifo Video

[MaartenSFS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL93 ... Ji0tNIOusQ

I thought I'd share this video of Cailifo (Choy Lay Fut) training. I like the training methods and the progression from drilling to sparring is clear. It's not perfect, but an interesting watch. I hope that they also target the head in other sparring sessions, though.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[100kilos]

I really like the fact that they puts gloves on and at least try to make it more realistic. I love Kung fu training but if you practice it as a martial art you can't run away from the martial part. If you practice it for health then by all means continue, it also great for that too, just don't confuse the two.

[shawnsegler]

No offense, but why is this interesting? I hope you don't mind if I ramble as I tend to do. This kind of exercise has been going around the block for over 1,000 years, it is pretty well known, like pak da or chi sao in wing chun. Such exercises are the precursor to pushing hands, but the theory and bodywork are 90 degrees off-course from what we see in this video. Here's something similar:

(https://youtu.be/6eedxyuche0 ; seems to be a problem with embedding youtube atm)

The only thing I see in these videos is people who are doing what might otherwise be labeled as external martial arts. The goal is different. Why should we care what goes on in a Choy Li Fut school? I am sure they do have some internal work going on in the 140+ forms that are a part of the official CLF system. I just don't understand what it is in particular is so attractive in their approach versus Tai Chi's.

Why are things like this interesting?

A: First off, there are lots of different people here at all sorts of different levels, and at a very basic level CMA are CMA and the label of internal and external is just an impediment. We have a pretty well established tradition of being fans of good CMA in general no matter how you want to differentiate them.

B: At a certain level of opening the body, the ability to mimic all sorts of attributes of movement becomes accessible to the practitioner and picking and choosing (stealing) techniques becomes an easy and fun way to explore the variations of tactic and movement between other MA. Plus you can never have too many good techniques.

C: If you're so fixated on some single esoteric skill that you can't allow it to coexist in your study of martial arts then you're a: saying some things about where your practice and mind are at, and b: limiting your self for no discernible reason other than to seem like a purist.

If your particular form of naval gazing precludes you from learning from every situation, then more power to you, I guess, but other people with cups less full can have equally valid ways of approaching this stuff and that might include finding points of interest where they find them.

Good luck finding that Maltese Falcon.

S

[MaartenSFS]

+1 Well put.

Why do I think it's interesting? Because it's closer to sparring than Taiji's Tuishou or Yongchun's Chishou, but still training sensitivity. As long as they also go for the head at some point I think this is solid stuff.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[MaartenSFS]

To be clear, Appledog, I don't give a fuck if what I do is Taijiquan or not. I train Shanzhaiquan, which is a combination of all the internal styles. Also, most styles of TCMA are internal, some more than others. Training sensitivity is an internal aspect of many martial arts. I dropped Tuishou out of my training, except as a beginner exercise to develop good structure and balance, in favour of training the XYLHQ way, which is not that different from the video above. I don't want it to take my students ten years to learn something that can't even guarantee victory in combat. It may not be Taijiquan, but it is internal.

I support your experiments. I have done much the same, taking a messy collection of amazing martial content and using a Western scientific mindset to systemise it. Just don't think it's necessarily better than what others do. There are many ways of learning how to fight and many ways to fight. You have just joined this forum and appear to be talking down to everyone. I say appear because I don't know you and can only judge from anonymous text.

Much can be said about streamlined arts that can be picked up in a short amount of time and applied directly to figting. Perhaps you should focus on creating an efficient programme to let your students achieve internal results in the shortest time possible and worry about refining it later. You'd be doing them a favour. I'm not talking about turning it into another art, just simplifying it in the beginning with lots of drills and Jibengong, AND SPARRING. Then add Tuishou and form work later.

I still hate your belt idea, though. That's just heresy..

[shawnsegler]

Actually it wasn't put very well at all, he was quite rude and showed antagonism towards me because I was talking about IMA.

HTFU.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[MaartenSFS]

I was just being coarse. It's true, though. Most of the masters that I have met that can fight well cross-trained in various styles of TCMA, perhaps a smidgen of Sanda, and don't really care what it's called, only that it works for fighting. Tuishou, to them, is a fun exercise to train in the beginning and when you're old. Nothing more..

You are butting heads with every on this forum. Don't be surprised when people respond harshly. Shawn isn't giving bad advice. What he advocates will deliver different training results. Whether you want those results is up to you. There are many ways to fight and many ways to develop internal power. One isn't necessarily better than another and may be more suited to certain people or more fun for you to train.

Also, consider this; there are way more practitioners of Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, Xinyiliuhe etc. that can fight, especially when comparing the number of practitioners. Taijiquan, as practised by MOST, has been turned into some kind of New Age hippy cult.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[shawnsegler]

Your comments on crosstraining are bad advice and when pressed you don't explain your position you just say HTFU. How about no?

You're projecting. You asked why it might be interesting. I didn't "comment on crosstraining" I pointed out that you're not the only person on this board and so what's not interesting to you might have value to someone else.

I'm not interested in having a conversation with you since I've already intuited everything I think I want to know about you from your posts, but yeah..if you want to interact with folks on the board..many of whom have different experiences and interests than you, you really should HTFU...so yes...please grow a pair.

S

[dspyrido]

No offense, but why is this interesting? I hope you don't mind if I ramble as I tend to do. This kind of exercise has been going around the block for over 1,000 years, it is pretty well known, like pak da or chi sao in wing chun. Such exercises are the precursor to pushing hands, but the theory and bodywork are 90 degrees off-course from what we see in this video. Here's something similar:

(https://youtu.be/6eedxyuche0 ; seems to be a problem with embedding youtube atm)

Marteen's video is more interesting than the 1st one you posted because:

1. Distancing: In your vid the guy throwing the punch won't land anything because he is too far out so why even use cloud waves hands?
2. Footwork: In marteens when they throw a punch they are at least using their feet to get in and out of range
3. Intention & power: Aside from being too far out he has no intention of even coming close to hitting the other guy
4. Randomness: It is robotic. Aside from the range problem the guy could do cloud waves hands with his eyes closed. In Marteens they are at least playing with different timing and even slightly changing attacks.

So it's not that Marteen's video is super awesome but it is at least doing something that is more interesting.

As for Wing Chun vs. the all mighty internal Tai Chi method - if people train like in your 1st video then a boxer with about 1 year of experience will have little trouble exposing the gaps. Even if you could move people around effortlessly after 10 years that does not mean that you will have timing, range etc. working.

BTW Choi Song Ting's focus on internal has IMO done more to destroy WC's ability to fight than anything else I have seen. Because of the "go internal" many WC people got disillusioned with the styles ability to fight. Those that stuck it out where happy to concentrate on sil lum tao and sticking hands which was the reason they could stop doing push ups on knuckles, hundreds of kicks & punches and free sparing. So a whole layer of combative people walked out the door and left the ones more inclined to take it easy and focus on being more internal. The outcome was a little sad to see.

But what is even sadder was that so many WC internalists failed to understand that Choi Song Ting also spent countless hours throwing thousands of punches, hundreds of kicks, doing many squats, lifting weight in the form of the butterfly knives and the pole.

Going internal just seems to me to be a easy way to avoid exercising & testing. It shouldn't be but it's amazing how many guys who class themselves as internal martial artists are next to useless when confronted with an "external" opponent.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[chimerical tortoise]

BTW Choi Song Ting's focus on internal has IMO done more to destroy WC's ability to fight than anything else I have seen. Because of the "go internal" many WC people got disillusioned with the styles ability to fight. Those that stuck it out where happy to concentrate on sil lum tao and sticking hands which was the reason they could stop doing push ups on knuckles, hundreds of kicks & punches and free sparing. So a whole layer of combative people walked out the door and left the ones more inclined to take it easy and focus on being more internal. The outcome was a little sad to see.

But what is even sadder was that so many WC internalists failed to understand that Choi Song Ting also spent countless hours throwing thousands of punches, hundreds of kicks, doing many squats, lifting weight in the form of the butterfly knives and the pole.

Has it now? I think you might be blaming the wrong man there.

I've trained for a little time under one of Chu Shong Tin's students - other than those who are explicitly training for 'health purposes' I found them to be more fightworthy than what I've seen from any other Ip Man WC. Yes, he was a researcher and as his students often say, the conditioning that you mention was merely the tip of his proverbial iceberg. But he was very serious about his WC training too - for example, I don't know of anyone who has put similar time into SNT than he has.

Most students walk away because they aren't able to do the hard work in standing or the mundane work in chi sau than anything else. Fair play, the martial arts is a wide world and there are lots of interesting teachers and systems out there. Still, if it's WC we're talking... it may be more physically strenuous to do knuckle pushups and treat chi sau like a slapfest game of tag, but it certainly is more difficult to train what Mr. Chu taught.

As one of the more low-key students of Ip Man I would hardly say that his teachings are at all familiar to most WC people - you can probably count the number of his direct students that teach publicly on both hands - let alone "destroy[ed] WC's ability to fight than anything else I have seen". What is sad is that people pay lip service as he is one of Ip Man's senior students, parrot what he says as if understood, and then proceed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding by doing the opposite.

There is a very long list of WC people who deserve that epithet far more.