Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby Bao on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:29 am

MaartenSFS wrote:So if I'm not doing TJQ your way I'm doing kickboxing???


When did I said that you need to do anything my way? :-\

If you can't see the Taijiquan in there then that is your problem.


This year I am celebrating 30 years as a diligent Tai Chi practitioner.

he didn't Fajin then it would be seamless. Taijiquan has always had Fajin, though, and one should be able to do so with any technique.


The fajin has nothing to do with it.

He told me that the Yang 24 form was created by martial artists and that the applications are sound. He just has his own expression.


The Yang 24 short form as well as several competition forms was just another attempt to control the martial art and turn it to bleak, useless health practice. The movements though are the same as in any Yang. If you do it as Tai Chi or not had nothing to do with how long or short the form is. The problem with this practice did not came with the form, but the way the teaching was standardized and spread in society, in China and in west. People go to Beijing, study and learn it for two weeks and get a teacher's diploma. Then they go home to their places, teach the movements and water it down further to the very last drop.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:54 pm

My teachers told me the 24 didn't have a martial sequence
If you look at its structure it is designed to be done in the alleyways between rows of machinery in factories or desks in a school
When I was teaching large classes I used it as an introductory form but those students never developed the way students who had learnt more well rounded forms did.
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby Bao on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:14 pm

wayne hansen wrote:My teachers told me the 24 didn't have a martial sequence
If you look at its structure it is designed to be done in the alleyways between rows of machinery in factories or desks in a school[]


Nice observation. 8-)

When I was teaching large classes I used it as an introductory form but those students never developed the way students who had learnt more well rounded forms did.


Some more traditional schools teach it or other short forms first to make the progress slower, so they have more to teach and students that stay and pay more. I tried to use it as an introduction. And once I even tried to use the ten form. :-\ But stances, individual movements and short drills are IMHO far superior as introduction and IME a pretty good way to start of a tai chi student.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:My teachers told me the 24 didn't have a martial sequence
If you look at its structure it is designed to be done in the alleyways between rows of machinery in factories or desks in a school
When I was teaching large classes I used it as an introductory form but those students never developed the way students who had learnt more well rounded forms did.

Xinyi/Xingyiquan practice also perfectly fit in the alleyways between the rows of machinery in factories. I used to practice my Karate katas between the desks at my first workplace, it was perfect.
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:32 pm

Some more traditional schools teach it or other short forms first to make the progress slower, so they have more to teach and students that stay and pay more. I tried to use it as an introduction


Never heard of this among those I know or interact with. In most cases we teach the 24 step
to test and see if its something a person wants and can do. An intro into the training and development before
spending a lot of time on something either they dont like or cant get...it tends to weed them out.

actually for serious people, single movement practice along with development practice is the real practice,,,
for those just wanting to learn a form, usually I advise them to find another group..
everyone is a little different.

In the old days single movement practice was the practice before linking the movements together.
Ill respective of the number of movements, its not the movement or form itself that makes something martial
or not....
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:39 pm

Two (silly) well spread explanation why the Karate kata Naihanchi/Tekki have the design it has is that it was developed to teach fighting tactics/techniques to be used if had to fight on the thin elevated walk paths in the rice fields??? Or in the narrow alley ways in south China cities :)
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:46 pm

windwalker wrote:
Some more traditional schools teach it or other short forms first to make the progress slower, so they have more to teach and students that stay and pay more. I tried to use it as an introduction


Never heard of this among those I know or interact with. In most cases we teach the 24 step
to test and see if its something a person wants and can do. An intro into the training and development before
spending a lot of time on something either they dont like or cant get...it tends to weed them out.

actually for serious people, single movement practice along with development practice is the real practice,,,
for those just wanting to learn a form, usually I advise them to find another group..
everyone is a little different.

In the old days single movement practice was the practice before linking the movements together.
Ill respective of the number of movements, its not the movement or form itself that makes something martial
or not....

When I moved to China I had been practicing the CMC 37 form and the 'Yang' 24form for many years, so when I first met my YTJQ teacher here in China I told him I knew the 24form and I was asked to demonstrate it for him, he stopped me after the first 'row' and said very good and from there he began to teach me the YTJQ 85 form
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:10 pm

De salon school of Kali is all vertical because it was developed to be used in the hallways of whorehouses
Hsing was not designed for the sports commission under communism
The tactics of tai chi and hsing I differ
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:03 pm

wayne hansen wrote:De salon school of Kali is all vertical because it was developed to be used in the hallways of whorehouses
Hsing was not designed for the sports commission under communism
The tactics of tai chi and hsing I differ

There is no doubt about the healt benefits gained from XYQ practice? And no doubt it could be practiced by all those Chinese factory workers. Maybe TJQ have a more calming effect on people's mind so that's why it was chosen by the Communist party ? Maybe the 24form has it's design because some of that 'board of creators' actually were XYQ practitioners, and thus maybe the 24form have more martial value? Maybe the creators of the 24 form where conspiring against the party ? Or maybe the form is just a well thougt out exercise that old and young, weak and strong can do and gain healt and strength from that in turn would benefit the strength of the nation? One can speculate many about the 24form. For me it was a good excercise, and by doing it well it opened some doors to teachers from who I gained some good knowledge about TJQ
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:12 pm

why speculate

The form was the result of an effort by the Chinese Sports Committee, which, in 1956, brought together four t’ai chi teachers – Chu Guiting, Cai Longyun, Fu Zhongwen, and Zhang Yu – to create a simplified form of t’ai chi as exercise for the masses.

The creators truncated the traditional family style t’ai chi forms to 24 postures; taking about six minutes to perform and to give the beginner an introduction to the essential elements of t’ai chi ch’uan, yet retain the traditional flavor of traditional longer hand forms (in general, 88-108 postures).


the history seems to be well known.

Or maybe

The creators truncated the traditional family style t’ai chi forms to 24 postures; taking about six minutes to perform and to give the beginner an introduction to the essential elements of t’ai chi ch’uan, yet retain the traditional flavor of traditional longer hand forms (in general, 88-108 postures


seems logical.
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:18 pm

windwalker wrote:why speculate

The form was the result of an effort by the Chinese Sports Committee, which, in 1956, brought together four t’ai chi teachers – Chu Guiting, Cai Longyun, Fu Zhongwen, and Zhang Yu – to create a simplified form of t’ai chi as exercise for the masses.

The creators truncated the traditional family style t’ai chi forms to 24 postures; taking about six minutes to perform and to give the beginner an introduction to the essential elements of t’ai chi ch’uan, yet retain the traditional flavor of traditional longer hand forms (in general, 88-108 postures).


the history seems to be well known.

Or maybe

The creators truncated the traditional family style t’ai chi forms to 24 postures; taking about six minutes to perform and to give the beginner an introduction to the essential elements of t’ai chi ch’uan, yet retain the traditional flavor of traditional longer hand forms (in general, 88-108 postures


seems logical.

Yes that is the explaination, and it is logical. But some seem to favor the 'communist conspiracy theory'.
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Re: Re-upload of my Master's Yang shi Taijiquan Form..

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:32 pm

Bao wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:So if I'm not doing TJQ your way I'm doing kickboxing???


When did I said that you need to do anything my way? :-\

If you can't see the Taijiquan in there then that is your problem.


This year I am celebrating 30 years as a diligent Tai Chi practitioner.

he didn't Fajin then it would be seamless. Taijiquan has always had Fajin, though, and one should be able to do so with any technique.


The fajin has nothing to do with it.

He told me that the Yang 24 form was created by martial artists and that the applications are sound. He just has his own expression.


The Yang 24 short form as well as several competition forms was just another attempt to control the martial art and turn it to bleak, useless health practice. The movements though are the same as in any Yang. If you do it as Tai Chi or not had nothing to do with how long or short the form is. The problem with this practice did not came with the form, but the way the teaching was standardized and spread in society, in China and in west. People go to Beijing, study and learn it for two weeks and get a teacher's diploma. Then they go home to their places, teach the movements and water it down further to the very last drop.

This not only the issue with the 24form, there are those that come here for a couple of weeks and learn 'long' TJQ forms to then go home and teach, that might be even more watered down. i have heard (in the past) of people that come here for a week and basically just gets an introduction of Yiquan then go back home and claim to be teachers of it.
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