(Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

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(Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:29 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:34 pm

We agree to disagree. Good luck with your training..

EDIT: Oh, and please don't clutter up my threads if we are clearly not talking about the same thing. I'll return the courtesy. :)
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:03 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:19 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:00 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:15 am

No worries. Can you apply any of this to fighting? How well do you fight?

Mike Tyson said "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." Those are wise words...
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:21 am

If you'll forgive the "bait", I think Mike talks a lot of sense on this subject: about the difference between push hands and fighting.

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... ke-sigman/
"The killer in me is the killer in you"- The Smashing Pumpkins.
http://www.taichinotebook.wordpress.com
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:14 am

I agree with his points. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:36 am

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:58 am

I can fight, and try to apply tai chi to fighting. Just perhaps not very well. I'm working on that. That's what the sparring sets are for.



Every body can fight. Why would one have to apply something to "fighting" that they already practice.
This means one is outside their practice. Boxers don't' apply what they train, they "do" they are...There is no separation between what they practice and what they do.

Push hands IMO once turned into a competitive event has / is / one of the worst development tracks in taiji.
It destroyed how the art was, could be, used. One can theorize all they want about swimming, wont prevent them from drowning.

For many taiji people they want to feel another's push hands while this has some indication of skill and is in its self a kind of skill, the question is for what and what kind of skill.

In China, I knocked a guy down once who looked like he had learned from my teacher. I saw him practicing and mentioned it looked like we had the same teacher In my broken Chinese, he could speak no English. He said lets push....and proceeded to try to do as many do "fight" or "win" which caused him to be knocked down...He then said "this was not the taiji of our teacher" I said ok...

He got back up this time he stopped trying to fight or win, which allowed for both of us to explore and feel differences in skill and understanding.
He then smiled and remarked "yes, this is correct"

I don't teach push hands, I do teach those I work with the principles whereby it works, and use it as an "exercise" among others in my own work and training.
In a recent trip to Peace Park in Taipei, the people there thought my skills set was pretty good, although I would be the first not to say so.

They practice and do push hands. http://taichitaiwan.blogspot.tw/2008/12 ... ping2.html If you or anyone want to test their push hands skill with people who do push hands this might be a good place to go. For me its not something I do...nor view in the same light...
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:55 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:13 am

This is what the treatise of taijiquan states right on page 1, about dealing with old force. When I pushed hands with the wing chun guy as I explained earlier I was unable to deal with him. So I remembered what it said and I listened very carefully to the wing chun guy's explanation of how and what he was doing. Then it clicked and I understood. I yielded to his force and I yielded my center, all the way. suddenly he had no more power left and just froze up and tensed.

I was shocked and suprised I did not understand why he did this, so I immediately plucked his force to the side (just applied ward off 90 degrees to the side like catching the moment) as is normal in the form of push hands. He lost his balance and tripped behind me. It was like I was pushing a broomstick at one end with my pinky while someone on the other end tried to shove it forward. Or like catching a baseball. According to him he was relaxed the whole time but to me I felt him tense up like a wooden stick.


In dealing with "force" the first thing one should understand is that all force comes from themselves.
Learn to deal with this and one will not have to deal with "force" one still has to deal with "intent" which is what push hands should
help one understand if they practice do so.

One should not be shocked nor surprised, its very basic taiji principles being applied.
I've met people who played wing chun before, most due to their practice can never really empty,
although some might think they can. They do feel that they understand fan song, as most people do
until they met someone who can..
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby BruceP on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:29 pm

If you need some bloghead to explain what the differences are between push hands and fighting,...hooooboy

Mike who? What does Mike know about fighting? Who's fighting whom? What are they fighting about? What's at stake? Pride? Money? Life? Where are they fighting? Is one of them armed, or both? What are the combatants' respective physical limitations and assets? Are either of them able to evade the other? Avoid the situation? Escape? Get help? Can someone explain to a dolt like me what this 'fighting' thing is all about?
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:57 pm

I know I am boring but!
Pushing is not an end within itself
It is part of a complete system
Fighting is fighting ,I hate to burst a few bubbles here but some people will never be fighters no matter what art they practice
Some people will always be fighters with No training
That does not mean that any art won't make you a better fighter than would be without it
Find an art
Find a decent teacher
Train hard
A good teacher is better than a good art
Punching a bag for an hour a day with no instruction will make you better than not doing it
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:53 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:05 pm

I know you won't teach us but how about you put up some film so we can see your expetise
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:00 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:00 am, edited 6 times in total.
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