(Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:16 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:04 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby charles on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:52 pm

Appledog wrote:There is a big difference between someone who is following this road and someone who butts against it with statements such as, "I don't believe in Chi". To me, people like that are not even doing Tai Chi in the first place, no matter what anyone else says. Actually a lot of name-brand masters have said exactly the same thing.


Chen Xiaowang has stated that one doesn't have to believe in "qi" to develop good skills in Taijiquan. Is he not doing Tai Chi?

I'm just pointing out, for the sake of discussion, that the way people seem to think tai chi works is diametrically opposite from what is written down in the yang family manuals.


The Yang family manuals are very difficult to understand and interpret. Consequently, there are many translations and many interpretations, some of which are diametrically opposite one another. If one uses those as the standard by which to compare people's understanding, it's somewhat of a moving target: who's interpretation/translation are you going to use and how can that be subjective proof of anything?

From personal experience it seems that the reason I get personally attacked for it is that people have felt betrayed, lied to, etc. by the whole "magic kung fu mythology" and view anyone "believing in it" as a fool, or an idiot, and treat them as such.


From your statement, it seems people have verbally attacked you because of what you practice or chose to believe the practice involves.


But just because you believe tai chi should be one way does not make it so.


So, here's the dilemma. If 10 people all say that Taijiquan should be a specific way, and state that it is something different than the others, are they all wrong? Is one right and the others wrong? Are they are right? Who's to determine which is right and which is wrong, and by what criteria?


You need something more credible. Like, for example, your name on the yang family lineage chart, or a book like Chen's.


Do I understand correctly that you are arguing that, based on your interpretation of the Yang family writings, that Taijiquan is a specific way and, although you don't have the skills of those who wrote that material, the fact that they wrote it and you've interpreted their writings a particular way is proof that that your interpretation is how it is or should be?

So I decided to throw in with the big-name family teacher crowd and not the small-time park practitioner crowd.


I'm not sure what that means. You chose to study with a big name to gain credibility? You choose to quote the writings of big name people?

My approach to push hands is more like in the following two videos than not. Call me a fan and nothing more.


I'm not sure what that means. Is there a "legitimate" approach to push hands that is NOT like the videos? What do you mean that you are a "fan and nothing more"?

It really has nothing to do with who I studied with. I've mentioned before I spent some time in Eddie Wu's school. However I would say 90% of my time was practicing with old people in the park.


I'm trying to get some insight into what sort of training you've done and with what background. That is, how you know what you know and the basis for knowing it. I'm getting the impression that you've studied a little with known teachers, done a lot of reading/interpreting and practiced with people in the park. I'm getting the impression that you are doing exactly what you are criticizing others for doing: filling in the gaps in ones training/understanding as one sees fit. Am I mistaken?

From where did you learn Chen Taijiquan? I thought that you practiced and taught Chen. Am I mistaken?

I'm just trying to understand the basis of your statements.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:59 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:09 pm

Sure I trust my experience over some manuals. If you do not its your training.

About push hands specifically. I think you should know by now I am against the freeform shoving hands crowd.'


shouldn't matter how they push or what they do if one has skill, my point was/is that why would one engage with others who are not working on
the same skill sets, to me its pointless, which is why out side of the same group, line, or teacher I don't find it very productive to push with others, push hands is an exercise to build skill sets that allows one to understand how to use the system.

Not to become good at push hands.

Others may find different.


If you point is that people don't practice the same exercises but they should, I would say it kind of depends on
skill sets being developed and methods used.

How then should we do push hands, in a Tai Chi setting?


Dont, know how you or others should "do" push hands.

When I work with people the first thing I tell them is not to push....
in the process they find out why. Most people know how to push
I help them to understand how not to push....

As to credibility I leave that to others to decide
I know and understand what I know, and what I do not.
its enough for me.

What do you think now that I have refuted that a few times (including in the message you are responding to above)?


I wasn't aware that you refuted it.
if you feel you did,,,cool
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:16 pm

The Yang family manuals are very difficult to understand and interpret. Consequently, there are many translations and many interpretations, some of which are diametrically opposite one another. If one uses those as the standard by which to compare people's understanding, it's somewhat of a moving target: who's interpretation/translation are you going to use and how can that be subjective proof of anything?

;)

also different family members seem to have had very different skill sets developed
some known publicly others not so much... Direct experience is the best way...
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Subitai on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:30 pm

BruceP wrote:Graham posted bait to sigman's blog. Apparently, something he wrote helps Graham figure out the difference between push hands and fighting


Ahhh, I see it now. I won't click on that link back from page 1 however.

I friggin' can't stand Sigman and my memory of him is literally from 17yrs ago when he was a big "know-it-all" in the PRE-Modern forum days of [ Rec.martial arts ] message groups. I bet I could google it back up from 2000 right now if I wanted to. He gives me the heebie - jeebies! :P If he's still at it I be he's even more full of himself.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby charles on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:31 pm

Appledog wrote:Really? Chen Zhenglei said anyone who doesn't believe in "qi" isn't doing taijiquan. Given that Chen Xiao-Wang's own "five levels of kung fu" (see: http://www.shou-yi.org/taijiquan/5-leve ... -taijiquan) talks about qi extensively even in the first level though, I think your statement is probably in error. If CXW said that, can you provide a quote?


It isn't my intention to get into a pissing contest.

CXW told me that personally, along with the other people we were standing with. There was no misunderstanding and he is fluent in the English language. He was very clear about it. Feel free to ask him directly.

charles wrote:The Yang family manuals are very difficult to understand and interpret. Consequently, there are many translations and many interpretations, some of which are diametrically opposite one another. If one uses those as the standard by which to compare people's understanding, it's somewhat of a moving target: who's interpretation/translation are you going to use?


Can you give me an example? I don't find them difficult to understand at all, being written in an almost conversational style.


Pick almost anything. Take the meaning of "double-heavy". Take the meaning of "peng". Take the "four ounces deflects 1000 lb" thing. Take the separation of Yin and Yang thing. Take the "release like an arrow from a bow" thing. And so on. What do these things mean? How does one implement them?

charles wrote:So, here's the dilemma. If 10 people as say that Taijiquan should be a specific way, and state that it is something different than the others, are they all wrong? Is one right and the others wrong? Are they are right? Who's to determine which is right and which is wrong, and by what criteria?


Well, what are some possible criteria? Perhaps a manual written down to include all of tai chi's theory and practice could be one. Perhaps the main-line famliy lineages such as chen, yang, wu, and what the top level practitioners say it is supposed to be like could be another.


Ever tried to read Chen Xin's book? Ever read what Jou Tsunghwa wrote in his book - likely the most popular book in English on Taijiquan - regarding "silk reeling" and his reference to Chen Xin's work?

charles wrote:
You need something more credible. Like, for example, your name on the yang family lineage chart, or a book like Chen's.


That may bring credibility, but doesn't make one "right". Look at the number of "masters" all claiming the other "masters" are wrong. Each group insists they, alone, have the one true teaching and the others are wrong.


Can you give an example? I find what you are saying to be incorrect. I can't think of a single example where some big name lineage holder actively disagrees with another over the basic core principles of tai chi. Form and application aside, tai chi is essentially one big family.


Taijiquan is essentially one big completely dysfunctional family.

CXW vs Feng.
Factions within Feng's system.
Factions within the Village vs other factions in the Village
Small Frame (xiao jia) vs. large frame (da jia) Chen Taijiquan
Village vs. Hong style
one practitioner of Tung/Dong vs. specific members of Yang family
CMC vs. Yang family

And the list goes on and on and on...


How many Taijiquan practitioners does it take to change a light bulb?

10. One to change the lightbulb and 9 to say, "Oh, we do it differently in our school". That's the polite public version.

The behind-closed-doors version is, one to change the lightbulb and 9 to say, "Oh, he doesn't know shit".
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby dspyrido on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:14 pm

Appledog wrote:
dspyrido wrote:
Appledog wrote:Maybe what I need is to practice this kind of rope pulling and tree hitting myself for a couple of months and see what I get out of it.


From what I have seen this is a secret of internal stylists who could deliver the goods. Go out and show people a form and do push hands paying close attention to structure & sensitivity. Then behind closed doors lift weights using the whole body and the right structure, pull ropes or whatever and hit things. The bones get denser and the tendons get stronger. When working heavy weight in a fluid fashion you need to use the whole body or else the limbs won't be enough.

Then when doing gentle push hands in a soft fashion there is a roaring powerhouse that is backing it up. People go flying and think that it was all because of a form but that was one part of the picture.


My experience has been the exact opposite. This kind of exercise is really damaging to your tai chi and push hands skill, and I will explain why. It's a very simple idea.


What's wrong with keeping the post in context?

Anyway sure you might feel it is damaging to TC & push hands. I've had "internalists" come along and tell me a lot of other bat shit crazy stuff about not using muscle, not sweating and in some fascinating cases things like using miracle energies or never hitting a punching bag because of the effects it has on one's chi and how it rebounds into the heart causing damage. Then I've taken a one look at them and told them - you are practising a martial art and the first contact with the enemy you will go to absolute pieces.

Guess what? It's all coming true on a global social media scale with these internalists looking like complete and utter fools because they like to:

a) play along within their own insular community and never step outside to really test things
b) feel that their lineage counts for something when in the end the only that really counts is being able to (1) think for yourself and interpret accordingly & (2) you only get what you put in
c) interpret the classics vs. actually building up their body's fundamentals

So is the use of weighted tools and other methods damaging to tai chi & push hands? Maybe but in the end the tai chi guys I have met who did apply the true discipline of kung fu where far far more capable at making mince meat of the tai chi guys who didn't.

To date I am yet to meet an authentic chinese master (from the mainland) who could fight that did not use a form serious rigorous physical training to give them the edge. Not one. Plus they also crossed trained in multiple styles under several instructors.

Oh & BTW ....

If you only believe one style or teacher is enough I'd like to introduce you to mma. Not one professional fighter there has one style and only trains with one group. No one.

Don't like this modern stuff? Ok how about cma: http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/1929-hangzhou-leitai-tournament/. The top 10 ranks all of them as having multiple instructors/styles.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Subitai on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:28 pm

Yo charles...interesting post,

Back in San Fran area...I used to hear this quote allot when it came to different teachers or styles debating eachother:

"In a room full of Sifu's...everybody is #1"


= Meaning no self respecting practitioner of kung fu would ever admit to being 2nd best! Ya ya...it's an ego thing.

I call it "Tai chi Almightyism". Sounds like a bad joke in the making:

-I'm sitting with 2 other TC guys and 1st guy says; "We're so soft we're like water"
-the 2nd guy says; "Nah, you're too hard...our school is ethereal like Air or a cloud"
= My response...screw this, i'm goin' Full on Kyokushin Karate on their asses and would win" ..... and I've never even studied Karate!
It's a joke a course.

Nobodies ever going to agree on anything in CIMA for sure. Everybody believes they have the GOODS. Or that their teacher is showing them the best. It's unavoidable, the world is Global with information to share but people still don't have to prove their shit works from across the Globe. Lots of people are pretty good and do have some skill. Most suck and don't.

I can see JohnWang right now going: "oh yeah, let them all fight and prove it" ....and he'd be right. But it's never gonna happen.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:47 pm

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:03 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby GrahamB on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:06 am

How about we try to steer this thread back to the practical?

If (probably a big ask) we can agree that push hands is about practicing peng lu ji an with a partner, how should we practice peng lu ji an?
One does not simply post on RSF.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:14 am

How can we even have a meaningful discussion of anything if people are not willing to tell us exactly who they learned from or show us a clip, anything??? I don't believe shit unless I can see it, preferably feel it. Especially when it's this esoteric. I'll also take practical knowledge from a living master's personal instruction over dusty tomes any day. It doesn't matter what is written in those books if someone gets K.Od in ten seconds!
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby Appledog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:32 am

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:08 am

WTF... I used to do Tuishou and still do occasionally..

Why are you being evasive? You act like only you know the one real truth, offer nothing and then expect people to take you seriously? Pfff...
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Re: (Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

Postby phil b on Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:12 am

Appledog,
Who did you study with?

Where do you teach?

My experience with individuals who quote classics is that they usually have their head firmly up their own arse. That may seem harsh, but I have trained with a well known internal arts instructor who could spout mystical bs until the cows came home, but a clear answer could never be elicited. Before you say, "ah, but maybe you don't understand", I have read xing yi classics and they didn't transform my xing yi into god like powers mentioned in the stories. The classics are an individual's thoughts on paper and as those with a great deal more experience than you have pointed out, not to be taken as gospel.

You want to be taken seriously on here, stop trolling and answer some basic questions.
Just your average office worker :p
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