(Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

[phil b]

I am reminded of a story about a challenge between two tai chi masters, one Chinese and one foreign.

The foreign guy challenged the other teacher after much back and forth as to who was doing real tai chi. On the day of the challenge, the Chinese teacher wanted to push with the challenger, but agreed to let students push first. The Chinese teacher knowingly chose a student who was not the best choice for the task at hand, and so dutifully stepped up to restore his honour. The foreign teacher stepped back and cried "a ha! You were double weighted, and then quoted classics in both English and Chinese. He awarded himself one point. The Chinese teacher shrugged and raised his hand ready to begin push hands. "A ha!" cried the foreigner. "You attacked and the classics say..." and off he went explaining in both English and Chinese the presumed violation of the classics. In the end, the Chinese teacher asked him to leave, accusing him of stirring up trouble but not wanting to really push. "A ha! YOu cannot control your temper, your tai chi is fake!" explained the challenger.

[wayne hansen]

I remember a guy who worked in the only martial arts store in Sydney at the time
He told me a certain teacher could not be any good because he saw him walking out of MacDonalds
I said he might be just going in to use the toilet like I do
No way said the guy,he was chewing

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[everything]

"A ha! YOu cannot control your temper, your tai chi is fake!" explained the challenger.

no, your passive-aggressiveness is fake.

my passive-aggressiveness is totally awesome and authentic.

[charles]

So what I said stands, no two big name masters disagree on any of the fundamentals, and in that sense Tai Chi is one big family? One art?

Sure, let's go with that. Except for Feng and CXW, whose disagreement on fundamentals is already quite public.

Okay, so lets start with you. Do you have a comprehensive training regimen which doesn't mention qi? If not, as a secondary question, are you familiar with the traditional way?

I was taught in a very traditional manner by very traditional teachers.

What I found is that most students haven't a clue what those traditional teachers are teaching. For a variety of reasons.

A good example is the usual admonition from many traditional teachers, "Sink qi to the dan tian". Most beginning students have no idea what the dan tian is or any meaningful, first-hand experience of "qi". Most have no idea how to sink something they can't feel to someplace they can't identify. Telling a beginning student to "sink qi to the dan tian", for example, isn't particularly helpful. So, what often happens is exactly what you started this thread by saying happens: students in a vacuum fill in the blanks and make stuff up: many students of traditional teachers end up making stuff up in an attempt to make sense of what their teachers say and do. And, one of the primary sources they use is to attempt to interpret what the "Classics" mean. That has been my experience. Perhaps yours is different.

I teach beginners beginner-level material. I do so in a series of videos that I call Taijiquan Foundations. In the first 100-minute video, the word "qi" is said exactly once, as is the word "qigong". The word "peng" is said once, as is "lu" and "an". Otherwise there isn't a single Chinese language word used, purposely. You can watch a 15 minutes preview of each of Volume 1 and Volume 3 on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOIKn3CFE5Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zJfqTGGMYo

Recently, I started a series of short videos I call Everyday Silk Reeling, intended for those practicing for health. No Chinese language words are used anywhere in the series, and no lengthy abstract discussion is used. The focus is on doing, not talking about doing. The first can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA0X6m7Hyi0

Why should I listen to you over someone like Ma Yue Liang?

You shouldn't.

If you had a western approach which was stepwise and solid you would probably make a million dollars on it.

My approach is "Western" only in so much as I attempt to use well-established methods and principles of pedagogy. Most teachers of Taijiquan that I have met do not have particularly good teaching skills.

Now you think your going to rewrite it into a completely different culture and mindset and that will HELP you to understand it?

And, that's the heart of the matter: to not rewrite it at all. Instead, focus on correct training, mostly leaving the "narrative" out of it.

I don't find the approach arrogant at all. I find it illogical.

I've deliberated long and hard as to whether or not I should make the videos and present the material that is in them. Perhaps it is arrogant of me. I've attempted to present the beginner-level material I wish I had been taught the way I would have liked it to be taught.

I don't know whether or not "qi" exists or not, and don't care: whether or not it exists is irrelevant.

If you are experienced enough to make that judgement call you need to write a book on the subject immediately. I have never seen such a book.

And you likely never will, at least from me.

If I've learned nothing else from 20+ years of Taijiquan practice it is that what matters is correct practice. It is impossible to learn correct practice from a book alone. Videos are better - but not great - in that at least one can see - if made purposely large enough to see - what one is supposed to be doing, at least at an entry level.

So whats the right stuff? The below troubles me... You know the form. So why don't you just practice it over and over and see for yourself?

Lots of people have just done the form over and over again. Not many of those have much insight or skill.

With appropriate guidance, many traditional teachers recommend that one do the form over and over again. "Smart" students figure it out, the rest just get choreography and calisthenics.

You obviously have a long and interesting experience and I am sure you have come up with "something". Maybe you are afraid to put it into words because you think people would not accept it.

I'm not at all afraid to put it into words. I don't care if people accept it or not.

But if you really do have any skills whatsoever, and if they are tai chi skills, you certainly avoid talking about them in any traditional way and seem to spend a great deal of time avoiding traditional methods and explanations.

Not at all. You want to talk traditional methods and explanations, I'm up for it. I've just met way too many Tai Chi practitioners who don't understand them, making it too abstract and non-productive.

If you have anything close to tai chi skills you need to write a book about your experiences and what you feel is a good way to train them.

It's not going to happen. With very few exceptions, in my opinion, most of what is written in English about Taijiquan is little more than scrap paper. In my opinion, it isn't an effective medium for communicating the art. In my opinion, it fills people's heads with all kinds of stuff while leaving them with little actual understanding or skill. Taijiquan is largely an experiential art, rather than an academic one. You can read all the literature you want, but without correct training, it doesn't amount to much.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[charles]

I can't imagine how it is possible you missed the whole qi thing.

I didn't say I "missed the whole qi thing". I said I don't know if qi exists or not, and that it is irrelevant whether it does or does not.

Humans have subjective feelings, but just because we feel things doesn't necessarily mean that those things exist on an objective level or that they are what we attribute them to being.

When I was 15, I knew someone well who was the dean of Humanities at the local university. He had spent most of his adult life studying religion. One day I asked him, "Does God exists?", figuring if anyone would know he would, having spent much of his life involved in that pursuit. He thought about it for a moment and said, "It doesn't really matter whether or not God exists. What matters is the result of believing whatever you believe: what is the outcome of believing that God exists versus the outcome of believing that God does not exist."

"Qi" is the same way: whether or not it exists is irrelevant. What matters is the outcome of believing that it does, or that it does not. I don't have to prove that it does or that it does not exist, I need only act accordingly. Perform the exercise/activity/action correctly and one feels things. One needn't attribute that feeling to a specific cause, such as "qi". It is what it is, regardless of to what you attribute it. So far, no one has objectively proven that qi exists. And, they don't have to. It doesn't change what one feels or what feats one can accomplish that one might chose to attributes to its possession/development. "The map is not the terrain."

There is an entire body of Traditional Chinese Medicine, for example, based upon the assumption/assertion that "qi" exists. If one accepts that assumption, it makes possible some very useful results in the field of human health. That people can be made healthy, or retain health, by following where that assumption takes one, doesn't prove that "qi" exists. Regardless, it is a useful assumption that can bring about useful results, at least in certain circumstances.

[MaartenSFS]

In Guilin there is an Wu Taijiquan master. He is seemingly very skilled, but arrogant as fuck. To him what I was training, our fighting, wasn't even Chinese Gongfu, we were so far off (according to him).. None of his students had any skill whatsoever. He spent all day doing the form (and smoking). I would see him Tuishou with his students. One day I was talking with my master and he said that perhaps one out of a thousand students of is would actually achieve any sort of worthwhile skill, as his teaching method was just so esoteric and they weren't doing any other foundation training. I had worked with him several times and he could push well. I wanted to punch him in the face, though.

According to a Gongfu brother of mine my master invited a Sanda champion to Guilin several months back and this Taiji teacher and him had some arguements. The Taiji teacher landed with his face almost on the ground (the Sanda champion stopped him from harm). The Taiji teacher said he wasn't ready and the same thing happened again. The problem with this Taiji master was that he was living in a vacuum where only what he does is correct. In his mind he is also skilled enough that he never needs to spar again or test his skills. Against people that suck balls I'm sure he'd fare great, but his arrogant attitude led to him losing a lot of face.

Appledog, you have clearly come on here with an agenda, yet seem to lack the confidence to put yourself out there. I wish you luck with your church.. er.. school. Pity the souls of your followers.. er.. students... I'll refrain from further cluttering up your threads.

[MaartenSFS]

You make some really great points, Charles, and haven't stooped to name-calling and base assumptions like the rest of us. *Raises glass*

Just watched your videos. Do you do any training by pushing, pulling and/or hitting trees?

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[everything]

Someone should really weigh in with the comment about RSF being like a bar and behavior when walking into said bar in a blustery way and irritating the longtime, regular patrons... and not in a passive-aggressive way like I just did.

[charles]

You make some really great points, Charles, and haven't stooped to name-calling and base assumptions like the rest of us. *Raises glass*

Thank you. I attempt to have civil discussions and discuss the content of the message, rather than attack the messenger. Somedays I'm more successful at doing so than others.

Just watched your videos. Do you do any training by pushing, pulling and/or hitting trees?

Years ago, I did a little pushing and hitting trees, but it wasn't a focus of my training. My primary teacher, back in the day, used to do a some, including kicking tress with his shins, a practice that I don't think he'd particularly endorse now.

[charles]

Whether or not qi exists in the same sense that God exists in your example is a false analogy, because the feeling of qi (whatever that feeling is) is a requirement in order to inform the way in which you perform the movements.

Your statement implies that you alter how you perform movement based on what sort of feeling you have and the "chasing" of that feeling is what guides or influences the movement.

I was taught to do the movement and the feelings take care of themselves. I was taught that it is an error to "chase" sensations or alter what one is doing in the pursuit of specific feelings. The "Classics" state that one should not focus on the qi, itself - that leads to "stagnation" - and by extension, the feelings that are associated with qi.

I just find avoiding talk of qi, after admitting you understand it and can feel it and use it in the traditional paradigm, sounds a little bit like holding back. But, if a western sports medicine explanation is desired for whatever reason, or even if it is possible, then I think you can do it.. I just don't see the point. Since in the end you are just doing the same stuff and feeling the same stuff and just calling it a different name than qi.

The point is entirely about making "correct practice" more accessible.

Yes, I'm just doing the same stuff, feeling the same stuff. The difference is that I'm not calling it anything. Instead, I'm focusing on providing explicit instruction on what to do - specifically, concrete, practical, effective instruction how to do the same stuff. That's the goal, anyway. Given how few people "get it", it is pretty clear that the way it is being taught to most students isn't very effective, for whatever the reasons.

As I previously stated, Taijiquan is largely an experiential art. How does one teach or learn "an experience"? Well, one way is to design a "situation" that specifically targets having someone else experience a specific, targeted thing while in that situation. Traditional practice of a long form is such a "situation". The student "enters into" the situation over and over again with the expectation that by engaging in that situation, the student will be lead to a specific experience - or series of experiences. The problem is that the long form is very complex and involves many, many different "situations" and experiences. Without very careful guidance through that "situation" (the practice of the long form, for example), it becomes a situation along the lines of putting enough monkeys together in a room with a typewriter long enough that they'll write Shakespeare. Eventually, with enough repetition, some students achieve the targeted experience for which the activity was designed. But, the number who do appears to be very small.

Getting back to your original post - and the subject of this thread - push hands is another example of such a "situation" that is designed to lead a student to a specific experience. From that experience comes understanding. The better, more carefully the "situation" is designed, the easier it is for students to experience what the "situation" was intended to produce. For example, the basic fixed-step, single hand pushing exercise is intended to lead the student to a specific experience. Without sufficient guidance in how to engage in that "situation" - i.e. good instruction - it becomes choreographed dance - or some other not-as-intended experience - not the experience the exercises was designed to produce.

I've gone on long enough, probably too long.

[johnwang]

I attempt to have civil discussions and discuss the content of the message, rather than attack the messenger.

Agree with you 100% there. To discuss a subject and express opinion is fun. To get involve with personal training and personal life is not. Appledog may have strong believe in something that I don't agree with such as:

- If you don't believe in Qi, you are bad, also your teacher and your teacher's teacher are bad too.
- "Internal" in superior than external (please notice that I have always put "internal" in "". Some none-CMA scholar invented that term at the end of the Ming dynasty about 300 years ago so people like us can argue with it through the next 1000 years).

But if I ever get into his discussion, I will never ask questions such as:

- Who is your teacher?
- How long have you trained?
- ...

I may ask him to put up a personal clip if he claims to have certain skill. Since I also put up my personal clip, it's a fair request IMO.