pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:21 pm

A lot of you have attained "art" status already at a young or middle age.

The rest of us at hobbyist level (unfortunately that's me) cannot really attain "art" level til a much later age. I'm not even really training MA (barely) right now. If I wanted to "understand" being able to "use" taijiquan, baguazhang, xingyiquan combo (hobbyist level :-[ ) maybe I can do that in my old age, but RSF would tell me I can't apply my knowledge under massive resistance, etc, etc. and it would probably be true :-\ to be realistic. Maybe I could post a video and get good marks for movement and that's it. Plus my physical fitness/energy level will be less than what it is now. But it still seems interesting so why not. As someone (Steve?) posted, life is all about hobbies in some sense.

What do you think about having "art" level much later in life? Do you expect to be more "technical" even if your overall physical/athletic state is less than now? If "use" is measured by technical + physical + mental + other, your overall level will be less even though your "technical" will be higher. How do you feel about it?
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby Subitai on Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:35 pm

To put it simply...if "Art" or being an "Artist" was the aspect that made pursuing kung fu as a scholarly art viable and consistent all the way into old age, then yeah sign me up. (No style is good IMO if you don't keep up with it and you'll never do that if it's not interesting enough to keep you enthralled with it)

As for the Martial aspect...IMO not everyone is destined to be a cage fighter or a spartan warrior or blah blah. Some will always be better than others. But if you can use it to successfully to defend yourself as needed or in an emergency situation? Then you pass the test. It's that simple, if it can save your ass it's still worth it.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:44 pm

I guess "art" and "self defense" need to be more well defined.

If we say "art" is taking something to the point that it produces a kind of beauty and emotional appreciation / inspiration, you achieved some "art". that should be worthwhile for its own sake.

if we say "self-defense" is handling yourself in that kind of emergency situation, it's too broadly hypothetical to be known how good is good enough. are there weapons, etc., etc.

if your "art" is some reasonable combo of the above, I guess to answer my own question, any art is a great idea, even if your practicality isn't as good as it once was. of course, for "martial arts" we want some kind of practicality, still. this is probably why the legends of IMA have such universal human appeal. to believe we can somehow achieve both goals to a very high degree even at an older age.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:29 pm

IMO, making the art your own is more important than practicing it more free or more technically. If you just copy your teacher and have no voice of your own and no idea that is your own, then what you are doing is not your own property. If it's your own property, it doesn't how you practice,
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby Subitai on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:30 pm

everything wrote:I guess "art" and "self defense" need to be more well defined.

If we say "art" is taking something to the point that it produces a kind of beauty and emotional appreciation / inspiration, you achieved some "art". that should be worthwhile for its own sake.

if we say "self-defense" is handling yourself in that kind of emergency situation, it's too broadly hypothetical to be known how good is good enough. are there weapons, etc., etc.

if your "art" is some reasonable combo of the above, I guess to answer my own question, any art is a great idea, even if your practicality isn't as good as it once was. of course, for "martial arts" we want some kind of practicality, still. this is probably why the legends of IMA have such universal human appeal. to believe we can somehow achieve both goals to a very high degree even at an older age.



Uhh...Blanket statement of practicality:
if it can save your ass it's still worth it.
;D
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:20 pm

when you get older, risk of falling is the greatest common accident that is a "violent" risk.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby RobP3 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:00 am

everything wrote:when you get older, risk of falling is the greatest common accident that is a "violent" risk.


+1 And you are more at risk from heart disease than terrorism. Training should be constructive, physically and emotionally / spiritually. It should give you the tools to express yourself in the moment.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:53 am

When you get old, your "ability" may get better than when you were young, but your skill (such as speed, endurance, flexibility) may be not.

When you was young, your head lock might not be powerful enough to tap out your opponent. Today you are 70, your head lock is much more powerful, but you may not wrestle on the mat any more.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:24 pm

everything wrote:What do you think about having "art" level much later in life? Do you expect to be more "technical" even if your overall physical/athletic state is less than now? If "use" is measured by technical + physical + mental + other, your overall level will be less even though your "technical" will be higher. How do you feel about it?

Yes. I think you summed it up well. Some fighting skills may improve with age (mind, strategy, fighting IQ, etc.), while other attributes (speed, power, etc.) decrease. A classic boxing example is Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Bernard Hopkins compared with Roy Jones Jr. Mayweather Jr. and Hopkins did well in their old age partly due to their fighting style and skills (ring IQ, setups, evasiveness, counters, etc.).

Jones' early success was partly due to his great athletic ability. As Jones got older, his athletic ability decreased. Jones Jr. did not do as well in old age as Mayweather Jr. and Hopkins. If you are starting MA later in life, you should focus on those fighting skills that work with old age, rather than rely on power and speed. There is always going to be someone bigger, stronger and faster than you.

Some quotes that can apply to old age and represents the art of fighting:
marvin8 wrote:“Precision beats power and timing beats speed” (after beating Aldo) — Conor McGregor

“Fighting is a game of timing, tactics and bluff.” — Bruce Lee

“It comes down to two things: who's the smarter fighter and who has the best timing.” — Floyd Mayweather Jr.

“You have to realize that most of these guys get in there and fight on heart. I fight with smarts. There is no fighter that is smarter than me. Most of these fighters are ABC, 1-2-3. I am like 4-5-6 levels above them; that's why I'm able to beat them.” — Floyd Mayweather Jr.

“He can have heart, he can hit harder and he can be stronger, but there’s no fighter smarter than me.” — Floyd Mayweather Jr.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:46 pm

I dont see how anyone can ever get the art. There are levels below & above. Plus challanges above challanges. It's the pursuit of the unfathomable that makes martial arts a life long pursuit.

The people who I've met who stopped pursuing it and felt they got it (they usually switched to focus on teaching, running martial arts as a business or something else) all stagnated and eventually went backwards.

IMO the art is all about finer skill refinement, greater health, life preservation/extension & to support being better equipped to enjoy it more. If that is what you are pursuing then you got the art.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby everything on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:30 pm

dspyrido wrote:I dont see how anyone can ever get the art. There are levels below & above. Plus challanges above challanges. It's the pursuit of the unfathomable that makes martial arts a life long pursuit.

The people who I've met who stopped pursuing it and felt they got it (they usually switched to focus on teaching, running martial arts as a business or something else) all stagnated and eventually went backwards.

IMO the art is all about finer skill refinement, greater health, life preservation/extension & to support being better equipped to enjoy it more. If that is what you are pursuing then you got the art.


this is a really nice way to look at it. keeps us humble and seeking.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby robert on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:28 pm

everything wrote:If we say "art" is taking something to the point that it produces a kind of beauty and emotional appreciation / inspiration, you achieved some "art". that should be worthwhile for its own sake.

There is another view of art and that is the pursuit of excellence. In the southwestern US there are people who make boots by hand. Some people make boots of such quality that they are considered artists.

I think that is what Zhuangzi's story of the cook/butcher is about.

Cook Ting was cutting up an ox for Lord Wen-hui. As every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee — zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Ching-shou music.

“Ah, this is marvelous!” said Lord Wen-hui. “Imagine skill reaching such heights!”

Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, “What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now — now I go at it by spirit and don’t look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.

“A good cook changes his knife once a year — because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month — because he hacks. I’ve had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I’ve cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there’s plenty of room — more than enough for the blade to play about it. That’s why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone.

“However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I’m doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until — flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away.”

“Excellent!” said Lord Wen-hui. “I have heard the words of Cook Ting and learned how to care for life!”

Translated by Burton Watson
(Chuang Tzu: The Basic Writings, 1964)
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby Appledog on Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:12 am

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby windwalker on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:21 am

I view my body as the canvas, the brushes and strokes I use as the skill, the mind that applies it I've yet to meet, still seeking the painter. What others View or not depending on if they can see it is the art
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: pursuit of "art" and not getting there til old age?

Postby everything on Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:04 am

windwalker wrote:I view my body as the canvas, the brushes and strokes I use as the skill, the mind that applies it I've yet to meet, still seeking the painter. What others View or not depending on if they can see it is the art


really well said.
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