are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby RobP3 on Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:39 am

johnwang wrote:A much simpler example can be just a punch to your opponent's head. When you do that, you want to make sure that your

1. leading foot is close enough for your punch to reach to your opponent's head.
2. back foot can help you to generate power from the ground.


1. is essential
2. is optional, the hand can also lead

Both can be trained without intent, the first by simple walking / positioning exercises, the second by certain striking drills. Each should then arise as a natural need for the body to protect itself from harm.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby shawnsegler on Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:03 am

KEND wrote:In training at the spontaneous level there is a feeling of 'flow' the body moves as a cat moves, you are aware of the movement but it is completely natural, the mind is empty of thoughts. In practice there is the same mindset, on contact the body acts spontaneously, you are not thinking about your opponent, what he is going to do, what technique you are going to use, you react to force vectors at the bridge. My Wing Chun instructor[HL] would say, don't think about your opponent, if you have done the work the body will take care of it. At the middle level it is about intent, at the moment of contact intent determines the counter/strike. At basic level you are still thinking what internal muscles are being used, what technique will counter the incoming force vector.
This is my own experience, take it for what its worth, you may train differently, have different ways of producing power, different notions on 'flow'


Stevan Plinck once told us in class (during my time training with him) that his teacher Paul De Thouars favorite martial arts maxim was "If you think..you stink". FWIW.

Best,

S
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:51 am

Published on Jun 22, 2017
Flowstate Explained By Mma Champion | Cody Garbrandt (W/ Fight Highlights)
check out the full interview, aubrey does an amazing job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffEc-M3sW-w
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby HotSoup on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:38 am

everything wrote:Related to my art question. This psychologist says you are happy in the flow state when you lose all track of time. Maybe that is what you're looking for when practicing? Maybe happiness isn't the right word/emotion/state, but I suppose everyone is seeking it as much as possible. Is this an explicit goal or part of your practice/learning/teaching/art?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihaly_Cs ... halyi#Flow


I read Csikszentmihalyi's book (https://www.amazon.com/Flow-Psychology- ... 0061339202) about two years ago and noticed that I was entering what he described as "flow" when I worked. And now I realize that it's somewhat similar to the state of my mind when I practice Taijiquan. I don't think that "flow" is completely separate from "happiness". It's just one of the tools to use less energy and have more joy during the practice. Right body structure is good therapy for one's spine. The right mind state is the same to the mental health of the practitioner. Both are instrumental but not sole tools for reaching and maintaining happiness.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby everything on Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:12 am

just one of the tools to use less energy and have more joy during the practice


really like your description, thanks.

I didn't really think about this idea as much before, I think. Maybe periodically. I agree with the "practical" people here about solo practice vs. sparring, etc., but at least this practice seems a little more enjoyable this way, especially good under time constraints. Plus it seems to give me some "wellness" feeling immediately and seemingly better sleep/better waking up feeling. And that's not nothing as they like to say. Take it less and less for granted each year.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby Wuji on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:18 pm

This is quite the interesting question!

In old Viking legend, we hear about warriors that would enter a state (some of the time through trance, some of the time with mushrooms, or something else) that allowed them to fight in a way that was so natural and fluid, that it was as if they were in a state like this. There is a modern day recreation of this practice that still goes on today by some. George Xu spoke about different levels of advancement in practice, the highest being "energetic". This wasn't a point where you were throwing Qi around or anything. He talked about different mental states from doing the same things for so long. If you practice the same art for 30 years (less or more, each person is different), you get to a point to where you might enter into a state of mind like this. You might be more flowing, but I don't think that means you are any less lethal. I think it's more that you've trained the predator mind (reptilian brain) so much, that your conscious mind isn't what is in charge at this point, the animal inside is.

Native Americans would do Skin Dances around a fire to pull on the spirit of the Eagle or Bear, this is a good example. Over time, it wasn't them any longer, not there conscious mind. I'm prone to think it was being more connected to the reptilian brain. Not a fact or anything, just my own assumptions. I do think that starting out in martial arts with the idea of doing forms in a meditation like trance is the best way to go about it. I think this is very dance like. You have to progress through the movements, develop your Gong Fu. You have to lay the foundation and do the work way before this is should be done.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby everything on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:59 pm

Seeking smoothness, connectedness, one part moves, everything moves, etc is a part of TJQ and IMA and MA.

I find a bit of this sort of form warmup (for flow and movement, not MA application) helps before doing any sport.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby TrainingDummy on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:56 pm

If you read Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience you could make the argument that Csíkszentmihályi isn't really talking about happiness at all, he's talking about optimal experience, and he makes the argument that optimal experiences are more deeply gratifying than the chasing of happiness.

"The best moments usually occur when a person's body or mind is stretched to it's limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile. Optimal experience is thus something that we make happen"

You don't need to be highly skilled to reach a flow state, Csíkszentmihályi only states that you need to seek a balance between the challenge of the task and the skill of the performer. Furthermore, flow state is not only limited to athletics, you can achieve achieve flow states in virtually any field. "What counts is to set a goal, to concentrate one’s psychic energy, to pay attention to the feedback, and to make certain that the challenge is appropriate to one’s skill. Sooner or later the interaction will begin to hum, and the flow experience follows.”

The positive psychology movement co-opted flow states to be equated with happiness, but they "are not necessarily pleasant at the time they occur. The swimmer's muscles might have ached during his most memorable race, his lungs might have felt like exploding, and he might have been dizzy with fatigue - yet these moments could have been the best moments of his life."



PS - My significant other just finished writing a book that applies some of Csíkszentmihályi's material to charity work, so I've been made very familiar with it.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby RobP3 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:35 am

Wuji wrote:This is quite the interesting question!

In old Viking legend, we hear about warriors that would enter a state (some of the time through trance, some of the time with mushrooms, or something else) that allowed them to fight in a way that was so natural and fluid, that it was as if they were in a state like this. There is a modern day recreation of this practice that still goes on today by some. George Xu spoke about different levels of advancement in practice, the highest being "energetic". This wasn't a point where you were throwing Qi around or anything. He talked about different mental states from doing the same things for so long. If you practice the same art for 30 years (less or more, each person is different), you get to a point to where you might enter into a state of mind like this. You might be more flowing, but I don't think that means you are any less lethal. I think it's more that you've trained the predator mind (reptilian brain) so much, that your conscious mind isn't what is in charge at this point, the animal inside is.

Native Americans would do Skin Dances around a fire to pull on the spirit of the Eagle or Bear, this is a good example. Over time, it wasn't them any longer, not there conscious mind. I'm prone to think it was being more connected to the reptilian brain. Not a fact or anything, just my own assumptions. I do think that starting out in martial arts with the idea of doing forms in a meditation like trance is the best way to go about it. I think this is very dance like. You have to progress through the movements, develop your Gong Fu. You have to lay the foundation and do the work way before this is should be done.


The Triune / Reptile Brain theory can be useful as a metaphor at a basic level, but has rather large holes in it from a scientific perspective.
Berserkers / mushrooms/trance states etc are all more to do with altering consciousness than flow states. Something of a flow state may be a side effect, but they are not quite the same thing. For me optimal flow state is being an optimum human being, not being "possessed" by the spirit of an animal or pretending to be something.
You can take any repetitive movement, chant or so on and use it to enter a trance state, but that won't necessarily put you in flow state, in some cases quite the opposite. Flow is about being alive and fully functional in the moment on all levels.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby Trick on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:03 am

RobP3 wrote:
Wuji wrote:This is quite the interesting question!

In old Viking legend, we hear about warriors that would enter a state (some of the time through trance, some of the time with mushrooms, or something else) that allowed them to fight in a way that was so natural and fluid, that it was as if they were in a state like this. There is a modern day recreation of this practice that still goes on today by some. George Xu spoke about different levels of advancement in practice, the highest being "energetic". This wasn't a point where you were throwing Qi around or anything. He talked about different mental states from doing the same things for so long. If you practice the same art for 30 years (less or more, each person is different), you get to a point to where you might enter into a state of mind like this. You might be more flowing, but I don't think that means you are any less lethal. I think it's more that you've trained the predator mind (reptilian brain) so much, that your conscious mind isn't what is in charge at this point, the animal inside is.

Native Americans would do Skin Dances around a fire to pull on the spirit of the Eagle or Bear, this is a good example. Over time, it wasn't them any longer, not there conscious mind. I'm prone to think it was being more connected to the reptilian brain. Not a fact or anything, just my own assumptions. I do think that starting out in martial arts with the idea of doing forms in a meditation like trance is the best way to go about it. I think this is very dance like. You have to progress through the movements, develop your Gong Fu. You have to lay the foundation and do the work way before this is should be done.


The Triune / Reptile Brain theory can be useful as a metaphor at a basic level, but has rather large holes in it from a scientific perspective.
Berserkers / mushrooms/trance states etc are all more to do with altering consciousness than flow states. Something of a flow state may be a side effect, but they are not quite the same thing. For me optimal flow state is being an optimum human being, not being "possessed" by the spirit of an animal or pretending to be something.
You can take any repetitive movement, chant or so on and use it to enter a trance state, but that won't necessarily put you in flow state, in some cases quite the opposite. Flow is about being alive and fully functional in the moment on all levels.

I remember back when interviews with Earl Montaigue was featured in many martial arts magazines where he spoke much about 'reptile brain' and 'c-back'. Iin those days I also read magazines about supernatural/spiritual/otherworldly kind of stuff, one article that stuck with me talked about demon possession and how such entities attach on the back of people that are in a certain mood or mental state. And also around that time I became familiar with David Ickes writings where he talk about reptoid entities possessing certain people. Some have had visions or actually very briefly felt they interacted with reptoid entities while under ayahuasca influence. Could it be that in the tales of old martial arts masters almost supernatural feats they where in fact under demonic possession, so are those especially in ICMA where spine 'manipulation/correction' goes on from class one more open to to have demonic back up ?......just some thoughts that came up now when reading here about berserkers, reptile brain and native Americans skin dance(skinwalkers).......Back to flow state 8-)
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby everything on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:00 pm

TrainingDummy wrote:If you read Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience you could make the argument that Csíkszentmihályi isn't really talking about happiness at all, he's talking about optimal experience, and he makes the argument that optimal experiences are more deeply gratifying than the chasing of happiness.

"The best moments usually occur when a person's body or mind is stretched to it's limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile. Optimal experience is thus something that we make happen"

You don't need to be highly skilled to reach a flow state, Csíkszentmihályi only states that you need to seek a balance between the challenge of the task and the skill of the performer. Furthermore, flow state is not only limited to athletics, you can achieve achieve flow states in virtually any field. "What counts is to set a goal, to concentrate one’s psychic energy, to pay attention to the feedback, and to make certain that the challenge is appropriate to one’s skill. Sooner or later the interaction will begin to hum, and the flow experience follows.”

The positive psychology movement co-opted flow states to be equated with happiness, but they "are not necessarily pleasant at the time they occur. The swimmer's muscles might have ached during his most memorable race, his lungs might have felt like exploding, and he might have been dizzy with fatigue - yet these moments could have been the best moments of his life."



PS - My significant other just finished writing a book that applies some of Csíkszentmihályi's material to charity work, so I've been made very familiar with it.


thanks a lot for this clarification. "happiness" probably isn't quite right, yes.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby yeniseri on Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:07 pm

Flow is about integration/synthesis of mind body cooperation in task consolidation/acquisition in the accomplishment of a "goal".
Happiness is a distant and secondary byproduct although glee/joy in the accomplishment of the task would generate better flow over time when this flow happens without prompting of any kind though a stimulus would be the trigger for action at some level.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby everything on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:04 pm

Thanks for that nice distinction.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby RobP3 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 am

Trick wrote:I remember back when interviews with Earl Montaigue was featured in many martial arts magazines where he spoke much about 'reptile brain' and 'c-back'. Iin those days I also read magazines about supernatural/spiritual/otherworldly kind of stuff, one article that stuck with me talked about demon possession and how such entities attach on the back of people that are in a certain mood or mental state. And also around that time I became familiar with David Ickes writings where he talk about reptoid entities possessing certain people. Some have had visions or actually very briefly felt they interacted with reptoid entities while under ayahuasca influence. Could it be that in the tales of old martial arts masters almost supernatural feats they where in fact under demonic possession, so are those especially in ICMA where spine 'manipulation/correction' goes on from class one more open to to have demonic back up ?......just some thoughts that came up now when reading here about berserkers, reptile brain and native Americans skin dance(skinwalkers).......Back to flow state 8-)


Yep, I remember all that too and some people would agree with that, depending on their religious / spiritual beliefs. Those aside, I think most would say that these type of practices tend to be harmful on many levels
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby willie on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:31 am

The answer is one big YES...My old Wudang stuff from years ago. LOL!
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