are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby everything on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:36 pm

Related to my art question. This psychologist says you are happy in the flow state when you lose all track of time. Maybe that is what you're looking for when practicing? Maybe happiness isn't the right word/emotion/state, but I suppose everyone is seeking it as much as possible. Is this an explicit goal or part of your practice/learning/teaching/art?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihaly_Cs ... halyi#Flow
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby RobP3 on Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:59 am

If you are "seeking" then you can't be in flow state. Just letting it happen is to be our natural selves in the moment, an acceptance of what is happening, working without preconceptions. We spend too much time in the past or the future, neither exists outside of our minds.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:39 am

How do you train with intent when you are in such a state? I personally feel that training with a piercing focus is much more practical.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby RobP3 on Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:24 am

MaartenSFS wrote:How do you train with intent when you are in such a state? I personally feel that training with a piercing focus is much more practical.


We don't really train intent as such
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby everything on Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:59 am

That's related to my "art" vs. practicality question. Your art should help your skills. However, ironically for the most part, you don't need to fight and shouldn't fight (excepting the fun of sparring, combat sports, etc.). So you are kind of left with "art" for art's sake, which seems an enemy of practicality but we like it (I'm not talking about just doing meditation as a non-martial interest). Which means part of the fun is just being in the flow.

I agree with RobP we can't be in that state of seeking or we won't be in that state of flow. What I meant to ask is how much is getting into flow an explicit goal of training or is it just a pleasant incidental effect and not really a conscious aim? If you are strictly "practical" sometimes you still want "flow" as in flowing attack/defense/etc as a deliberate skill.

Btw I think that's why some people like doing form, and why I sometimes enjoy it, even if it's not the most practical thing to practice. You can find yourself in this flow state. You can also train yourself to enter this state a little quicker, perhaps.
Last edited by everything on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:06 pm

Having a soft focus helps one to stay in the flow state. If I intend to do something and the situation changes how do I adapt? There is little time to think in a fight. Do I hit him in the face? or Do I block his punch? takes valuable time that is better spent on responding physically (allowing your body to do what it is trained for) then mentally going through my options. Both yiquan and systema work this way. Listen to RobP3.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby shawnsegler on Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:57 pm

Image
I prefer
You behind the wheel
And me the passenger
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby johnwang on Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:59 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:How do you train with intent when you are in such a state? I personally feel that training with a piercing focus is much more practical.

You can't.

The difference between combat and dancing is intend and no intend. When you train, you should always pretend to know where your opponent's leading leg, leading arm, and back arm are. For example, when you parry down your opponent's leading arm, you have to assume that either your opponent will resist/yield. You will then take advantage on his resistance/yielding force.

When I

- step in, I always assume that my leading leg will jam on my opponent's leading leg.
- punch, I always assume that my opponent will block my punch.

MA is 2 person's art and not "solo".
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:03 pm

shawnsegler wrote:Image


Your circle walking has never looked better.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:04 pm

johnwang wrote:The difference between combat and dancing is intend and no intend. When you train, you should always pretend to know where your opponent's leading leg, leading arm, and back arm are. For example, when you parry down your opponent's leading arm, you have to assume that either your opponent will resist/yield. You will then take advantage on his resistance/yielding force.


How can I remember all that when I have no mind?
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby KEND on Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:30 pm

In training at the spontaneous level there is a feeling of 'flow' the body moves as a cat moves, you are aware of the movement but it is completely natural, the mind is empty of thoughts. In practice there is the same mindset, on contact the body acts spontaneously, you are not thinking about your opponent, what he is going to do, what technique you are going to use, you react to force vectors at the bridge. My Wing Chun instructor[HL] would say, don't think about your opponent, if you have done the work the body will take care of it. At the middle level it is about intent, at the moment of contact intent determines the counter/strike. At basic level you are still thinking what internal muscles are being used, what technique will counter the incoming force vector.
This is my own experience, take it for what its worth, you may train differently, have different ways of producing power, different notions on 'flow'
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby everything on Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:41 pm

I want to encourage very MA-specific responses.

However, I'm also wondering about a wider scope philosophical and psychological question. In your opinion, do you think you, fellow students, teachers, non-MA people are wanting to enjoy this "flow" state as much as possible for its own sake, for maybe self-actualization type needs as this psychologist seems to think?

From the link above (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihaly_Cs ... halyi#Flow)
This is a feeling everyone has at times, characterized by a feeling of great absorption, engagement, fulfillment, and skill—and during which temporal concerns (time, food, ego-self, etc.) are typically ignored.[12]
In an interview with Wired magazine, Csíkszentmihályi described flow as "being completely involved in an activity for its own sake. The ego falls away. Time flies. Every action, movement, and thought follows inevitably from the previous one, like playing jazz. Your whole being is involved, and you're using your skills to the utmost."[13]
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby johnwang on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:22 pm

Taste of Death wrote:How can I remember all that when I have no mind?

You can't. IMO, no mind means that you pretend your opponent doesn't exist. This is why I don't believe in "formless" approach.

For example, when your left arm wrap your opponent's right arm,

1. You push your right hand on his throat.
2. You step in your left foot right in front of his right foot.
3. You move your right leg in a clockwise 1/2 circle and end behind his right leg.
4. You then step in your left leg behind his left leg.

If you just make a small mistake, your "cut" technique will not work.

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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:30 pm

johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:How can I remember all that when I have no mind?

You can't. IMO, no mind means that you pretend your opponent doesn't exist. This is why I don't believe in "formless" approach.

For example, when your left arm wrap your opponent's right arm,

1. You push your right hand on his throat.
2. You step in your left foot right in front of his right foot.
3. You move your right leg in a clockwise 1/2 circle and end behind his right leg.
4. You then step in your left leg behind his left leg.

If you just make a small mistake, your "cut" technique will not work.



If 1 is better than 1-2 and 1-2 is better then 1-2-3 than why would I want a 4 step technique? And you are right. I don't think about my opponent.
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Re: are you seeking happiness in "flow" state

Postby johnwang on Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:02 pm

Taste of Death wrote:If 1 is better than 1-2 and 1-2 is better then 1-2-3 than why would I want a 4 step technique? And you are right. I don't think about my opponent.

Your opponent has 2 arms and 2 legs. You also have 2 arms and 2 legs. If you want to use your

1. left arm to control his right arm.
2. right arm to control his head.
3. left leg as your rooting leg.
4. right leg as your attacking leg and control his right leg.

You will need those 4 steps. Even that, your opponent's free left arm can still give you trouble.

A much simpler example can be just a punch to your opponent's head. When you do that, you want to make sure that your

1. leading foot is close enough for your punch to reach to your opponent's head.
2. back foot can help you to generate power from the ground.
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