Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:22 am

everything wrote:
Did you look at that video? That guy did snatch the bird out of the air. Only the second instance I know of. Never saw that before.

off topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44w-tVPObs8

China meets an American gung fu master. There is a clip someplace of Mike catching pigeons.

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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:37 am

everything wrote:Did you look at that video? That guy did snatch the bird out of the air. Only the second instance I know of. Never saw that before.


off topic just some random thoughts. :-\

The question that one might ask:

Was the skill to do this a product of the training
or was the training designed around the skill of catching the bird.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25928

the teacher has skill and did teach taiji, even demoed some skill sets recorded of past masters,
was unable it seems to apply the function of the skills demoed in a live setting.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby everything on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:04 am

Also off topic. The first time I knew of this kind of bird catching was kind of a random event. A bird had flown into one of our school classrooms, and was probably a little freaked out, flying around, causing a commotion. My friend (we thought we were Tarzan back in the day running around in the woods; I was not, but he had some freakishly good coordination) somehow grabbed the bird in flight and released it out the window. I didn't see this, unfortunately. Everyone talked about it for a while. I was really surprised, but I believed it because I'd seen him do other feats of unusual coordination that none of the other athletic kids I knew would do or try (a lot of this was probably a product of reading too many Tarzan books then). Maybe it's not really that hard, though? I have no idea.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby robert on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:05 am

HotSoup wrote:That's actually the thing which I find most fascinating — the name affecting evolution (or degradation) of the style! Imagine that 200 years later there will be masters (or wannabe-masters) of Shanzhaiquan modifying the style to resemble its name more accurately. Sounds crazy now, but what would've Chen Changxing said, if he learned that people are trying to implement the Ying-Yang concept in practicing taolu by changing the tempo back and forth? Or the opposite, keeping the same tempo through the whole routine, claiming it resembles the unity of the "Great Pole"?

We have writings attributed to Chen Changxing and they read like philosophical treatises. Here's a portion from his ten essential points.

Qi (AIR, BREATHING, ENERGY)

Nothing exists between heaven and earth that would vanish without
returning in a different form.
Nor is there anything straight if there is nothing that is crooked.
Therefore the saying goes that all things have their counterparts and
move in circles. This truth has existed since the beginning of time and
shall continue into eternity. When we speak about ‘chui', i.e. to strike
with the fist, we speak about Qi as well. One matter divides from one
into two. Two in this respect means to breathe in and to breathe out. To
breathe in and out means Yin and Yang.

‘Chui‘, to strike with the fist, cannot exist without 'dong' and ‘ting',
to move and to be at rest. Qi cannot exist without breathing in and
breathing out. To breathe out is yang. To breathe in is yin. Rising to
the top is yang, sinking to the bottom is yin. Rising yang qi is yang,
sinking yang qi is yin. Rising yin qi is yang, sinking yin qi is yin. This
is the distinction between yin and yang. What is then the meaning
of ‘qing' and ‘zhuo’, the clear and the dim? Rising to the top is 'qing',
clear, sinking to the bottom is ‘zhuo', dim. 'Qing’ is yang, ‘zhuo’ is yin.
When we speak about the contrasts of a matter, we speak of yin and
yang, ...


Jing jin and jing luo are based on yin/yang pairs. Dao yin is part and parcel of these theories. That goes back thousands of years. The people who incorporated Jing jin/jing luo theories and dao yin practices into MAs would have had a basic understanding of yin/yang prinicples and theories.

It is said that Chen Wangting passed the Imperial exams, his father was educated and his grandfather was a government official so he would have passed the Imperial exams as well. They would all be familiar with Neo-Confucian cosmology - Wuji, Taiji, Yin/Yang, 5 Phases, Bagua, and so on.

The talk of yin & yang, qi, wuji, taiji, 5 phases. bagua, xinyi. and so on is Chinese culture/philosophy. I think that if the name was Gangrouquan (hard soft boxing) the writing would still be the same. The same ideas and writing style are applied to Xinyi/Xingyi.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby everything on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:06 am

The bird not able to push off for flight looks easier than I imagined all these years. At times it seems like they just start moving their arm up and down and the bird is adjusting with some mild wing flapping rather than the other way around.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:41 am

Basic tcc theory: one has to go down in order to go up. If the bird has nothing to push down on, it cannot go up. So, the bird thing is a test of sensitivity. Ever watch a falconer launch his bird? Well, it's a matter of aerodynamic air flow, if you see what I mean.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby everything on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:01 pm

Steve James wrote:Basic tcc theory: one has to go down in order to go up. If the bird has nothing to push down on, it cannot go up. So, the bird thing is a test of sensitivity. Ever watch a falconer launch his bird? Well, it's a matter of aerodynamic air flow, if you see what I mean.


no, I guess the falconer helps by holding a stable arm? How much resistance does a bird really need, I wonder. They seem to push off the flimsiest of branches or bushes so not much, I would think.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:08 pm

everything wrote:Also off topic. The first time I knew of this kind of bird catching was kind of a random event. A bird had flown into one of our school classrooms, and was probably a little freaked out, flying around, causing a commotion. My friend (we thought we were Tarzan back in the day running around in the woods; I was not, but he had some freakishly good coordination) somehow grabbed the bird in flight and released it out the window. I didn't see this, unfortunately. Everyone talked about it for a while. I was really surprised, but I believed it because I'd seen him do other feats of unusual coordination that none of the other athletic kids I knew would do or try (a lot of this was probably a product of reading too many Tarzan books then). Maybe it's not really that hard, though? I have no idea.


Grabbing a pigeon in a room with two hands is not gong fu. To pluck a bird out of the air with one hand as it flies by while you are standing in the park talking to your friends...that's the real gong fu. Either that or getting a raven to walk up to you and eat out of your hand.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby everything on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:13 pm

lol
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:30 pm

everything wrote:
Steve James wrote:Basic tcc theory: one has to go down in order to go up. If the bird has nothing to push down on, it cannot go up. So, the bird thing is a test of sensitivity. Ever watch a falconer launch his bird? Well, it's a matter of aerodynamic air flow, if you see what I mean.


no, I guess the falconer helps by holding a stable arm? How much resistance does a bird really need, I wonder. They seem to push off the flimsiest of branches or bushes so not much, I would think.


Well, still basic tcc theory. And, you can test it by trying to jump without bending your legs. At least, you'll agree that it's possible to generate more energy by bending the knees.

Afa as aerodynamics, air needs to flow over a bird's wings in order for it to fly. That speed can/must first be generated by falling, so that the wing stroke can push against the air in order to generate lift. The heavier the bird, the more lift required. Pushing the bird off helps, but the smaller, the easier.

Anyway, the idea of the bird in the hand trick was to demonstrate that it was possible to sense when the bird tried to push off (just as every human would do) in order to leap into the air --and yada, yada aerodynamics. In some ways, the idea is related to the sayings that "not a feather can be added, nor a fly alight" without causing the practitioner to move.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:30 pm

Steve James wrote:Ya know, there are millions of people who trace the origin of their line to some legendary character who did extraordinary things. Some would call their stories histories, and others would call them myths. Either way, they can be very important to the believers.


What I spoke about is not about tracing legends, "extraordinary things" or anything similar, but trying to trace an arts real history through real historical records.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:57 pm

trace an arts real history through real historical records.


And I'm saying that you're talking about something that was a folk history until someone decided to write it down. The faith in that written record is just like faith in a religious or legendary founder. It can have nothing to do with what happened. That, however, does not make it untrue. It was written that Chang San Feng invented tcc by watching a bird and a snake. I'm not claiming that it's true, only that there are people who believe it as "real" history.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:43 pm

Steve James wrote:
trace an arts real history through real historical records.


And I'm saying that you're talking about something that was a folk history until someone decided to write it down. The faith in that written record is just like faith in a religious or legendary founder. It can have nothing to do with what happened. That, however, does not make it untrue. It was written that Chang San Feng invented tcc by watching a bird and a snake. I'm not claiming that it's true, only that there are people who believe it as "real" history.


Don't be ridiculous. I have never claimed that there's any truth in that story.

But there are several early historical records where the name Zhang Sanfeng is mentioned and he is described a daoist with certain features. "Tai chi Chuan" is obviously not mentioned in these records because the name was not invented. I don't think that there's any record of the myth about watching a bird and a snake either. But in the historical records, he is associated with boxing, Neijiaquan and the Shisanshi (Thirteen postures). So we know that there is a historical connection between daoism and martial arts and also between daoism and a name of an exercise, which in different ways has been associated to Taijiquan. These connections are facts. No one knows what was invented when by whom.

But claiming one single inventor of the art of Taijiquan is IMO ridiculous who ever that inventor is supposed to be. Taijiquan is an intricate art that has been developed and refined by many generations of teachers. Could one single person invent all of that out of the blue? Did Zhang Sanfeng invented anything or was he a practitioner of something, yet became a symbol of a different art? Who knows? Chen Wangting probably collected different arts and put it together in his own way and blended it with his daoist studies, but did he really invent anything new by his own? Who knows? Why is it important to know?
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:37 pm

Don't be ridiculous. I have never claimed that there's any truth in that story.


Well, fwiw, I didn't mention or think of you in the post you responded to. I wasn't really interested in what you claimed. But, I've never said that you claimed anything, anyway. I was talking in general about "history" and oral histories in particular. More specifically, I was referring to the way that people are so sure about stories they've read or been told. You or anyone can argue about it; but, not from any position of certainty.
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Re: Taijiquan's name before it was even called "Taijiquan"

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:51 pm

+1
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