Kua 胯

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Kua 胯

Postby Yeung on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:42 pm

Kua 胯 is crotch and its meaning is clarified by the Chinese idiom: shamed under the crotch (kua xia zhi ru胯下之辱) from the story of Han Xin (230 BC–196 BC) who was force to crawl between someone`s legs as humiliation.
I hope this will clarify some of the misconceptions related to kua.
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:46 pm

Yeung wrote:Kua 胯 is crotch and its meaning is clarified by the Chinese idiom: shamed under the crotch (kua xia zhi ru胯下之辱) from the story of Han Xin (230 BC–196 BC) who was force to crawl between someone`s legs as humiliation.
I hope this will clarify some of the misconceptions related to kua.


might help to add some clarification


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBTNlKk ... e=youtu.be


the clip is no longer posted by the poster

this clip also talks about the kua for those interested


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCx82sXERCI
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:18 pm

Yeung wrote:Kua 胯 is crotch and its meaning is clarified by the Chinese idiom: shamed under the crotch (kua xia zhi ru胯下之辱) from the story of Han Xin (230 BC–196 BC) who was force to crawl between someone`s legs as humiliation.
I hope this will clarify some of the misconceptions related to kua.


Do you have a video representation?
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:00 pm

胯 is the hips, the outside, 裆 is the crotch, or inside. I've also asked two Chinese to confirm this (Because I am a Laowai, after all :P ).

We can say this about a pair of trousers as well. 裤裆 = the trousers crotch.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby Yeung on Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:37 am

Taste of Death wrote:
Yeung wrote:Kua 胯 is crotch and its meaning is clarified by the Chinese idiom: shamed under the crotch (kua xia zhi ru胯下之辱) from the story of Han Xin (230 BC–196 BC) who was force to crawl between someone`s legs as humiliation.
I hope this will clarify some of the misconceptions related to kua.


Do you have a video representation?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-2lbGG0aPo
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby Yeung on Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:07 am

MaartenSFS wrote:胯 is the hips, the outside, 裆 is the crotch, or inside. I've also asked two Chinese to confirm this (Because I am a Laowai, after all :P ).

We can say this about a pair of trousers as well. 裤裆 = the trousers crotch.


Dang is the front and rear intersections of a pair of trousers, some called them front rise and back rise and some called front rise as front crotch. Crotch is the inseam of the trousers from left to right.

A proper Teacher should in a position to show you the various movements of the crotch. Very often writers refer to as Yao Kua (waist and crotch). This can be misleading at time but can be demonstrated by showing. In the context of open and close, the crotch is easily understood while hip is not. The movement of the crotch generally refers to the pelvis and legs. May be we can got into more details when analysing movements like open, close, rotation, turn, pull, push, lift, seat, etc.
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby robert on Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:28 am

For translations into English that I've seen I prefer inguinal crease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groin

The crease in the inguinal canal.
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby amor on Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:07 am

Yeung wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:胯 is the hips, the outside, 裆 is the crotch, or inside. I've also asked two Chinese to confirm this (Because I am a Laowai, after all :P ).

We can say this about a pair of trousers as well. 裤裆 = the trousers crotch.


Dang is the front and rear intersections of a pair of trousers, some called them front rise and back rise and some called front rise as front crotch. Crotch is the inseam of the trousers from left to right.

A proper Teacher should in a position to show you the various movements of the crotch. Very often writers refer to as Yao Kua (waist and crotch). This can be misleading at time but can be demonstrated by showing. In the context of open and close, the crotch is easily understood while hip is not. The movement of the crotch generally refers to the pelvis and legs. May be we can got into more details when analyzing movements like open, close, rotation, turn, pull, push, lift, seat, etc.


I've also come across the hip as being called the kua and crotch as the inguinal crease however I don't think these facts mean much in isolation.
More interesting is what is actually happening at the kua or hip joint specifically during sinking and rising of the body and open/close. Perhaps during your training in zhang zhuang you have noticed these things. When one kua opens it usually indicates in my experience that the inguinal crease is closing and vice-versa.

And you can't get isolate what is happening at the shoulder level when one kua is closing/opening. Usually the shoulder is doing the opposite of what one kua below is doing.
I'm sure there are many yin/yang pairs we can get into as you mention above rotation, turn, pull, push, lift, seat etc. but it would get more complex and it already is just with the open/close concept.
Last edited by amor on Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby Yuen-Ming on Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:52 pm

Yeung wrote:Kua 胯 is crotch and its meaning is clarified by the Chinese idiom: shamed under the crotch (kua xia zhi ru胯下之辱) from the story of Han Xin (230 BC–196 BC) who was force to crawl between someone`s legs as humiliation.
I hope this will clarify some of the misconceptions related to kua.


Nope

"Kua" refers to the whole block formed by the attachement of the legs to the torso.

The "Shuowen" explains it well (胯) 股也。合兩股言曰胯。"Kua are the legs. The attachment of the two legs that is called Kua"

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Re: Kua 胯

Postby Yeung on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:37 am

Western contextualization of kua is lower extremity:

lower extremity in Medicine Expand

lower extremity n.

The hip, thigh, leg, ankle, or foot. Also called inferior limb , pelvic limb .

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby taiwandeutscher on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:06 am

Yuen-Ming wrote:
Yeung wrote:Kua 胯 is crotch and its meaning is clarified by the Chinese idiom: shamed under the crotch (kua xia zhi ru胯下之辱) from the story of Han Xin (230 BC–196 BC) who was force to crawl between someone`s legs as humiliation.
I hope this will clarify some of the misconceptions related to kua.


Nope

"Kua" refers to the whole block formed by the attachement of the legs to the torso.

The "Shuowen" explains it well (胯) 股也。合兩股言曰胯。"Kua are the legs. The attachment of the two legs that is called Kua"

YM


Many thanks, was waiting for you, lol!
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:03 am

amor wrote:I've also come across the hip as being called the kua and crotch as the inguinal crease however I don't think these facts mean much in isolation.
More interesting is what is actually happening at the kua or hip joint specifically during sinking and rising of the body and open/close. Perhaps during your training in zhang zhuang you have noticed these things. When one kua opens it usually indicates in my experience that the inguinal crease is closing and vice-versa.

And you can't get isolate what is happening at the shoulder level when one kua is closing/opening. Usually the shoulder is doing the opposite of what one kua below is doing.
I'm sure there are many yin/yang pairs we can get into as you mention above rotation, turn, pull, push, lift, seat etc. but it would get more complex and it already is just with the open/close concept.

The "inguinal crease" sounds like a practical definition. What are the benefits of opening and closing the kua in a martial context?
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby amor on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:18 am

marvin8 wrote:
amor wrote:
The "inguinal crease" sounds like a practical definition. What are the benefits of opening and closing the kua in a martial context?


Alot of terminology coming out regarding what the kua is, hip-joint, inguinal crease, femurs, pelvis, pelvis+femurs etc so just for clarity I am going to say the kua that I am talking about is the inguinal crease that folds about 45 degree's when opening or closing (the crease is seen when the kua closes).
But in practice you have to coordinate the area above the kua such as the waist and under the armpits to get it all flowing together. But if you have the kua open to the point where you can fold down on one leg or both without cramping up your lower back then that's useful. As you have good leg strength with the ability to lift and raise the body so all the weight is going down to the feet instead of the knees. An obvious advantage from an IMA perspective.

About martial context the opening and closing of the kua facilitates the idea of being full and empty, I would say. You 'sink' on the kua as it closes which makes that leg take all the weight or becomes full, the other leg has no weight and the kua is open, leg is empty. So the kua is very important for facilitating 'full and empty' and it's more of a case of how do you use full and empty to fight which is a subject that can fill an entire book. I'm no expert but I'd say it's about facilitating storage of energy and releasing or neutralizing and fajin.
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby charles on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:39 am

marvin8 wrote:What are the benefits of opening and closing the kua in a martial context?


Your question doesn't really make much sense. Different styles use the body differently, including how they use the kua. Some styles use a stance that has a closed kua (e.g. Wing Chun). Some styles use a stance that has a predominantly open kua (e.g. Chen Taijiquan). Both work.

If your question is why would one want to alternate opening and closing the kua - within the same style - again, the short answer is that it is part of how one, in that style, uses the body to generate force/power and to neutralize, how one coordinates - or not - the parts of the body. It is basic to the style and how the body is used within that style. In Chen Taijiquan, one of the simplest, overt examples of opening or closing the kua is to power a leg strike against an opponent's leg to destabalize the opponent's leg. An example of the action in solo training is shown at 1:57 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRAv85s3OZk

Opening and closing the kua are independent of "sinking": they are two different things. One can open the kua and not sink, one can close the kua and not sink, or one can open the kua and sink and close the kua and sink. It also has nothing to do with "empty" or "full": one can have an open kua that is empty or an open kua that is full, etc.
Last edited by charles on Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua 胯

Postby Appledog on Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:11 am

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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