self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby Giles on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:33 am

Steve James wrote:Afa a weapon, such as a cane, the problem with them is the same that bouncers have. I.e., hitting someone can sometimes escalate the situation. And, we're all like gamblers at the table. Knowing when to hold, fold, walk away or run is the same as winning.


In an analogy-packed thread (which is not a criticism per se) I think this is the most useful one. When it comes to self-defence for 'normal people', which is most of the population and plenty of people on this board too, including me, I'd say the most important things are:

- develop one's own 'body language' through normal good training. The more grounded and simultaneously upright you are, the more relaxed and simultaneously integrated, the less you will be perceived as a target/victim.

- develop awareness of other people's body language to spot and if possible avoid threats before it gets critical.

(The above factors are also relevant for elderly people, even if they have next to no chance in a physical altercation)

- do scenario training for the 'poker game' in Steve's analogy. Avoid if possible, leave if possible, de-escalate if possible. But if the moment comes when these options are approaching zero, train to throw the switch and go into the aggressor's space with all the mental and physical commitment you can muster. Drill a maximum of 2 or 3 entries/techniques à la Fairbairn +/- High Pat on Horse. Probably just for a few seconds, and then run/leave if you can.

Sparring in itself is great but I'm sceptical about it being the best option to prepare for self-defence. Squaring up to an aggressor or showing any kind of willingness to fight ('signing a contract') is usually a no-no, and any kind of 'in and out' or 'give and take' mentality and action, as one usually does in sparring, is a no-no as well. I see a greater chance of a 'normal' person landing a strike which just enrages, not neutralizes. Better to train how to go from 'nothing' to maximum possible commitment, into the aggressor's balance and face, put them on the ground, maybe using any weapons/objects to hand, and then depart...!
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby everything on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:52 am

Giles wrote:Sparring in itself is great but I'm sceptical about it being the best option to prepare for self-defence. Squaring up to an aggressor or showing any kind of willingness to fight ('signing a contract') is usually a no-no, and any kind of 'in and out' or 'give and take' mentality and action, as one usually does in sparring, is a no-no as well. I see a greater chance of a 'normal' person landing a strike which just enrages, not neutralizes. Better to train how to go from 'nothing' to maximum possible commitment, into the aggressor's balance and face, put them on the ground, maybe using any weapons/objects to hand, and then depart...!


agreed with everything you said. just want to call out the last part. go from "I don't want any trouble" to bam. kinda like carol in the walking dead (more analogies). she seems harmless but she can instantly go stone-cold-killer more than anyone else on the show. it wouldn't make any sense if she started dancing like muhammad ali. this is not an argument against sparring in training; it's just a tactical set of decisions to fit certain scenarios. also, if one is unable to do sparring for whatever reason, a "normal" person can still learn the above to some degree.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby RobP3 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:19 am

Giles wrote:
In an analogy-packed thread (which is not a criticism per se) I think this is the most useful one. When it comes to self-defence for 'normal people', which is most of the population and plenty of people on this board too, including me, I'd say the most important things are:

- develop one's own 'body language' through normal good training. The more grounded and simultaneously upright you are, the more relaxed and simultaneously integrated, the less you will be perceived as a target/victim.

- develop awareness of other people's body language to spot and if possible avoid threats before it gets critical.

(The above factors are also relevant for elderly people, even if they have next to no chance in a physical altercation)

- do scenario training for the 'poker game' in Steve's analogy. Avoid if possible, leave if possible, de-escalate if possible. But if the moment comes when these options are approaching zero, train to throw the switch and go into the aggressor's space with all the mental and physical commitment you can muster. Drill a maximum of 2 or 3 entries/techniques à la Fairbairn +/- High Pat on Horse. Probably just for a few seconds, and then run/leave if you can.

Sparring in itself is great but I'm sceptical about it being the best option to prepare for self-defence.


Yes I agree, but the fact still remains that if you want to learn any kind of physical punch/grab/kick type work, anything involving physical contact, you have to "get wet", you have to train with another person. It doesn't mean you have to put on gloves and get in a ring, there are hundreds of variations of "sparring" but you have to do more than work some "magic techniques" into empty air.

Same goes to some extent on "soft skills". You need to feel fear in order to understand how to control it. There are some things you can do solo, but much more effective to work with a partner.
"Remember, if your life seems dull and boring - it is" Derek & Clive
www.systemauk.com
RobP3
Wuji
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:30 am
Location: UK

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby RobP3 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:21 am

everything wrote:
agreed with everything you said. just want to call out the last part. go from "I don't want any trouble" to bam. kinda like carol in the walking dead (more analogies). she seems harmless but she can instantly go stone-cold-killer more than anyone else on the show. it wouldn't make any sense if she started dancing like muhammad ali. this is not an argument against sparring in training; it's just a tactical set of decisions to fit certain scenarios. also, if one is unable to do sparring for whatever reason, a "normal" person can still learn the above to some degree.


But you are making an assumption that that is what "sparring" is. I prefer to take a wider definition, to me it is almost anything involving two or more people working with contact. There are so many variations and variables you can throw in, it is an ideal tool for learning self defence.
"Remember, if your life seems dull and boring - it is" Derek & Clive
www.systemauk.com
RobP3
Wuji
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:30 am
Location: UK

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby middleway on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:32 am

Great topic. I had the pleasure of teaching my mother Tai chi for a number of years, at 71 she is strong and capable. She now trains under a different teacher but when we touch hands she has great solidity.

IMO for the senario you present in the OP the focus should not be on physicality, but then that is my belief for almost all 'Self defence' work. The majority of encounters i have seen personally were only about 5% physical, the rest is other stuff...

Every person you train should be assessed individually and no one size fits all approach should be applied. However, there are underlying concepts i would look at with someone. All very trainable. They shouldnt be 'theory' based but should utilize training methods to engrain them naturally.

so for me i would be focusing on:

1) Environmental intelligence. Not putting yourself into situations where violence is likely. Sometimes this is easier said than done of course.
2) Situational awareness - how to recognise very early signs of trouble, how to 'trust your gut'.
3) De-escalation skills. How to calm a volatile situaiton.
3) Escape tactics - how to remove yourself from a violent situation. (no that doesnt mean running)

In terms of physicality, some physical training to condition the body to a basic level should be a priority, learning to Fall as Rob mentioned is also a primary skill. Before all others someone should feel somewhat strong for themselves (not in comparison to others). This will change their mindset.

IMO the risk of escalation is ever present. I have seen people hit in the head with sticks and simply loose the plot and go bazerk ... this is not what someone wants. The aim of physical intervention should be 1 of 2 things.

1) To mechanically disable the attacker
2) To de-escalate the attacker.

For someone strong and trained, these two measures can take any myriad of forms that we see across the martial arts..

For the older untrained person, Striking is out of the question in almost all scenarios IMO. The risk of escalation is too high and the accuracy required too specific. The first cab out of the rank, should be to the learn the concepts behind grappling. No sparring etc, no ground fighting, but standing grappling concepts ... but i re-tterate this is the last priority behind everything else.

just my thoughts on it.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4674
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby Giles on Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:42 am

RobP3 wrote:Yes I agree, but the fact still remains that if you want to learn any kind of physical punch/grab/kick type work, anything involving physical contact, you have to "get wet", you have to train with another person. It doesn't mean you have to put on gloves and get in a ring, there are hundreds of variations of "sparring" but you have to do more than work some "magic techniques" into empty air.

Same goes to some extent on "soft skills". You need to feel fear in order to understand how to control it. There are some things you can do solo, but much more effective to work with a partner.


Oh sure, absolutely! I didn't mean to imply the opposite, that it's all down to forms, visualization and maybe a little push-hands to 'make it real' ;D
I had defined 'sparring' in the more narrow, conventional sense. (And once again, it's a great thing in itself). With your broader definition, encompassing lots of the stuff you show in your videos, I'm fully on board.
The times I have trained the actual SD techniques with people, it has often been with extremely thick, soft mats where the people can use a classic technique like one palm to the partner's face/chin, other hand to the back of the head or to the lower back, getting nice and close to the partner's centre, and then give it some real energy to throw the partner to the ground. - Just not too jerky at the start of the movement to avoid the danger of whiplash - That's dynamic structure-breaking but actually quite fun once the inhibitions are overcome. When it comes to sensing and getting a little more used to fear, then group-against-one exercises/scenarios can be quite useful. And sometimes 'classic' sparring, too ;)

-- Actually it's quite revealing to see that for many normal people, just grabbing them by the arms and putting on a fierce expression is enough to make them tense up and freeze mentally and physically. (And that's understandable, of course). So dealing with fear, breaking the freeze and drilling to immediately counter this quite mild 'attack' is already a decent challenge for many beginners.

Middleway: thanks also, great post. Good on your mum !!
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby BruceP on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:10 am

An awareness drill our group has done with first-timers. The newb is the subject and isn't aware that a drill is even being conducted. Everyone else (usually 3 or four people) is in on it, though:

The drill addresses the failure that occurs when we feel/sense something isn't right but we disregard or ignore that feeling and continue along anyway. Always with the failure...

We've been using this drill in our group for a bunch of years and it's evolved from the basic 'sucker-punch' drill it started out as into a series of step drills for exploring the subtle aspects of encroachment and mobbing, among other things. Without going into all the different variations we've worked up using the idea, I'll just outline the basic set-up.

There are different roles assumed in the drill depending on who is involved and how many. It works on different things depending on the context. Everyone's first experience with it has themselves as the unwitting 'subject' and everyone else as either bystanders or participants. The effect is much different if the subject has worked through it before and kind of knows what to expect than when they don't know that anything is even going on.

For first-timers, one person in the group creates a pretext of some sort, like postural analysis for instance, and asks the first-timer to hold a piece of paper, magazine, book, whatever, at eye level with their elbows touching their ribs and read aloud until they've finished the page.

As they're reading a few others close in, encircle, or whatever to apply a little bit of pressure. It works best if only two or three people 'surround' the subject - one behind, one off to one side and the other in front or flanking. Some people will naturally pause at some point but are immediately encouraged (using subtle and casual tone) to keep reading. Point of failure? At any rate, most will continue reading whether they go into a state of high-alert or not.

For those who have done the drill before, the context can be made more specific accordingly. They suspect something's going to go down...maybe, maybe not...but they're not sure. It doesn't have to involve the subtle pressures of encroachment or being surrounded. It can be a one-on-one drill.

As a sucker-punch drill, it usually leads to someone getting hit. As an encroachment drill, maybe the same, maybe not. Intent is the main focus once everyone in the group has done the basic variations. Sometimes the intent is 'goal oriented' as in mugging, assault, etc, and sometimes it's hidden or very subtle. And sometimes it's nothing more than everyone intending to move through the space to get to where they want to go beyond it. Lots of different energetic combinations can be explored with the drill.
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby Steve James on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:38 am

As a sucker-punch drill, it usually leads to someone getting hit.


That's another aspect. Imo, the main benefit of sparring is not necessarily an increase in skill. It's also a matter of experiencing and knowing how to react (and not to react) after being hit. The problem is that not everyone can afford to gain those lessons. They are invaluable, though.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21137
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:31 am

Bao wrote:A few years ago, my father was threatened by a man with a knife. My father hit the guy hard on the head with his crutch. So understanding how to use everyday tools might be a good idea for a self-defence class. Having pepper-spray is fine. Some chinese carry a bottle or jar with chili powder or chili oil with them. Keys attached to a long chain is also something that could be used.

I agree and missed your point, earlier. Elderly are at a physical disadvantage. Everyday weapons can even the field if approached and used correctly.

wayne hansen wrote:I teach several tai chi cane forms
The biggest problem is if you need a cane you usually don't have the balance to use it
By the way those videos are terrible.

The Tai Chi videos I posted do require balance when using the cane, which elderly tend to have a lack of. However, to run, kick or punch can take even more balance. I was going to post Americans showing cane techniques. However, I didn’t want to hear, “That’s not Tai Chi!” ;) At the same time, I would not dismiss using the cane as a weapon given the right instruction and technique.

I would think there are some higher level cane techniques out there. Some possible advantages of a cane is less balance required (than kicking, punching, grappling, running), extension of weapon, power generation, smaller movements required (e.g., as small as wrist action), etc.

A few other cane videos that require less movement and balance.

Published on Aug 24, 2009
Archie at 73:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RKKovlWovo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxasNuXHzSk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq3jkgkJlTo

A self-defense program for elderly should take their weaknesses into consideration. Them running, kicking and punching may be considered their weak points. All of the comments on awareness of surroundings, deescalation, etc. are good and should come before entering an altercation.

A couple other moves that may be helpful are draw attention from others by yelling, "No! Stop! I'm being attacked–call 911!" Also, it may be a good idea to have a stack of $1 bills to throw and distract the attacker, giving an advantageous position.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby northern_mantis on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:53 am

Interesting discussion, lots of good input. Just a thought, I find it quite interesting that rightly or wrongly, most people take the view that it's not worth them or they're not motivated to learn any kind of self defence and they go through life just trying to avoid trouble.

If people do take on some training it's also important to avoid the 'little knowledge is a dangerous thing' syndrome, though IME this is easily done just making sure the context is properly explained.
northern_mantis
Huajing
 
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:55 am

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests