self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby RobP3 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:42 am

I don't understand this thing you have about people "not wanting to be a fighter." Very few of us are "fighters" in the sense of we are not soldiers or sports fighters. Likewise, I'm not a cross channel swimmer, but I know how to swim. And in order to learn how to swim I had to get wet.

Now, certainly, as Bruce writes above, there are many other issues to address in terms of self defence / a a healthy lifestyle and these can be practiced as they stand or can/should be integrated into any good "complete" self defence system. But, when push comes to punch, physical conflict management skills can only be learned "hands on".
As regards "falling practice" I include balance/structure and movement within that, it's an integrated method
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:40 am

everything wrote:Suppose you are helping someone, let's say it's your senior citizen mother, enroll in some self-defense training. She isn't interested in being a "fighter", getting in a ring, or doing any sparring. Maybe she isn't fit, has arthritis, an old injury, etc. so that really doesn't make much sense. . . .

What is an "intermediate" level of skill you would encourage her to get to? Something between CPR and becoming an emergency room nurse or doctor. On this board we want everyone in every hypothetical thread topic to become a "doctor" but what about people who just aren't going to do that for various good reasons.

Cane movements/techniques might be found useful.

Published on May 16, 2015
Here I am describing some of the T'ai-Chi principles I focus on while doing the T'ai-Chi cane forms of our style. I recently uploaded semi-instructional videos of our solo and partner cane forms and one of my subscribers asked for more details regarding these principles, so here they are. Take it easy, so slow, listen to your body and don't force anything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_pWL-XN37k


Published on Jul 23, 2008:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cEjgPiiTn8

Published on Jul 30, 2008:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgGqrsZiLqI

Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:11 am

I teach several tai chi cane forms
The biggest problem is if you need a cane you usually don't have the balance to use it
By the way those videos are terrible
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:12 am

Sorry double post
Last edited by wayne hansen on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby everything on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:05 pm

RobP3 wrote:I don't understand this thing you have about people "not wanting to be a fighter." Very few of us are "fighters" in the sense of we are not soldiers or sports fighters. Likewise, I'm not a cross channel swimmer, but I know how to swim. And in order to learn how to swim I had to get wet.


I think this is a good analogy, and I agree most of us are not fighters. Most people cannot be a high level swimmer. Knowing some basic swimming is a great idea for everyone, though. Definitely have to do it. Can't learn it from a book. I have some younger relatives who are good athletes but cannot swim.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby northern_mantis on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:53 pm

I'm not a fan of the swimming analogy. With swimming you're either in the water or out, no in between. With martial arts the steps between maybe a verbal disagreement and full blown fight are many. Also if a non swimmer is thrown in the water they can't spontaneously swim, however untrained people can spontaneously fight.

So even low intensity training has value, it's just a trade off of risk and effort in training vs your likely need for self defence. That's why when people approach me for self defence training I double check they want to invest their time and money in it when we live in such a safe area and maybe shift the emphasis towards the health side of the arts more of the time.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby everything on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:25 pm

yes if you take the analogy too far it doesn't make sense.

health, fun, socializing, discipline, accomplishing goals, helping others, etc. should probably be more important if people want to keep going.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:28 pm

Selt-defence without sparring is like learning how to swim without getting into the water... It's pure fantasy.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:29 pm

But learning Taijiquan for health would bring a lot of other benefits like good balance and deeper breathing.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby everything on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:42 pm

ok, but what is an interesting activity between those two for really ordinary people, for example, very young or very old or middle aged who aren't really fit for sparring? is "self-defense" not suitable for those people. that doesn't make any sense. for example when you learn CPR or using a fire ladder, you don't really train in "realistic" or "live" conditions. but many people can use this training in a real situation if the time comes. it's perfectly ok if you are personally not interested in this middle ground, but what do you think it is or should be?
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby Steve James on Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:31 pm

is "self-defense" not suitable for those people.


Everybody needs self-defense. Not everyone will have sparred. But, let's be practical. How do you prepare your grandmom to defend herself against Brock Lesnar? Or, just someone his size.

Afa a weapon, such as a cane, the problem with them is the same that bouncers have. I.e., hitting someone can sometimes escalate the situation. And, we're all like gamblers at the table. Knowing when to hold, fold, walk away or run is the same as winning.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:18 pm

Honestly, they are fucked.. :-\
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby everything on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:57 pm

Same with the fighter facing an armed gang.

Awareness + avoidance + fast running (not everyone can do) + all the other things listed are good.

It's a slightly different topic than being good at MA (what we like).

But if you take all the non MA stuff and add what MA you can that's all you can do. I'd say that's fine. You can't help everyone face every hypothetical.
Last edited by everything on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby Ian on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:23 pm

Isn't it more worthwhile to make one's mother happy, get her involved in hobbies, make sure she receives love and care etc... than to get her into "self defense"?
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Re: self-defense, no sparring or fighting

Postby everything on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:32 am

lol definitely. but this question isn't really about mothers. that's just a good example to dramatize the scenario (everyone else but "fighters").
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