the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

robert wrote:Below is a link to a pretty good article about strength training in taiji. As David points out

Chen Taijiquan requires the body to be used in a unique disciplined way and has a wide-ranging training curriculum encompassing standing-pole exercise, single-movement exercises, barehand forms, push hands, weapons and supplementary equipment training. In common with other sports or martial arts, it is essential to begin with the basics. With time and conscientious practice, the body is strengthened and one discovers a new means of moving. ...

Once a person understands that the body is used in a unique disciplined way and understands that neijin is a different way of moving weight training can be used to strengthen the body in this new type of movement. If a person is studying taiji and they can't lift more weight more comfortably and perform daily activities more easily they should look for a better instructor.

http://chentaijiquanworld.blogspot.com/p/strength-training-in-taijiquan.html

I kind-of like this post.
The extra strength can be utilized on the back side of the movements. I have to admit that I have met many taiji players who have
become so fragile??? The harsh environment of body building will toughen up the body. The mind will toughen as well. They are one.
Too many people are unbalancing themselves with to much yin.

David Boxen wrote:Anyone who does weight training of any kind will completely destroy their ability to do tai chi.

I had a summer job in NYC back in 1971. Part of my summer job was to use a sledge hammer to knock down a 2 store brick building all by myself. My Taiji training was completely destroyed after that.

Today, I'm glad that I'm no longer a "slave" of the Taiji system that I started to train when I was 6 years old. When I see a $100 bill on the ground, I will bend down my head to pick it up as fast as I can. I don't have to worry about that I have just violated the Taiji principle - always keep head straight up.

hahahahahahaha

"Sorry honey, I can't help you carry these groceries. My teacher said it will ruin my Tai Chi". Maybe there IS something to this belief in not lifting heavy things.

johnwang wrote:

everything wrote:lift luggage, ....

In another thread, we had come to the conclusion that Taiji is supposed to be trained by person who is rich. All Taiji masters have their own slaves to lift luggage for them.

Lift luggage -> sweat -> bad

I remember Reading about Zheng Manqing in 'There are no secrets' by Wolfe Lowenthal on a day out for bowling Zheng had trouble lifting and holding the bowling balls. Apparently he only had enough strength to hold a (practice?)sword and painting/calligraphy brushes...

wayne hansen wrote:

RobP3 wrote:What "indoor" training I have seen in one of the main Yang Family lineages involves heavy weapons, an iron staff, a large iron ball as well as a lot of "resistance" training with a partner (Dynamic Push Hands). I'm sure other family styles have similar Indoor" methods. I sometimes wonder if teachers tell people they don't need "strength" in order to stay stronger than them

What lineage is that?

Yang Sau Cheung, also the Tungs

johnwang wrote:

David Boxen wrote:Anyone who does weight training of any kind will completely destroy their ability to do tai chi.

I had a summer job in NYC back in 1971. Part of my summer job was to use a sledge hammer to knock down a 2 store brick building all by myself. My Taiji training was completely destroyed after that.

Today, I'm glad that I'm no longer a "slave" of the Taiji system that I started to train when I was 6 years old. When I see a $100 bill on the ground, I will bend down my head to pick it up as fast as I can. I don't have to worry about that I have just violated the Taiji principle - always keep head straight up.

That's right John. I'm a steel worker, I lift heavy steel all day. Busted a lot of bricks just like what you described when I did construction.
None of those things had a negative impact on my training. Builds character.

Thanks

Based off of the amount of heavy weapons, static holds, kettle bells, isometrics, weighted rings, weighted vests, holding heavy objects while in posture and yes barbell training I've seen go in "internal" martial arts I would say supplementary resistance training is pretty common if not widely recognized as mandatory. Look at a young Jackie Chan or Donnie Yen and they were pretty jacked.

Being strong never hurt anyone I've ever met.

On the other hand being weak is a primary cause of injury particularly in the elderly.

All of the real world examples I've seen of the skinny martial artist knocking over the huge bodybuilder happened when said bodybuilder didn't know how to fight. On the other hand, I've seen some supremely strong men with very little martial skill completely destroy weak yet "skilled" martial artists.

Have you talked to any older body builders or labourers

All of the real world examples I've seen of the skinny martial artist knocking over the huge bodybuilder happened when said bodybuilder didn't know how to fight. On the other hand, I've seen some supremely strong men with very little martial skill completely destroy weak yet "skilled" martial artists.

Obviously they could not have been to "skilled" as martial artists.
None of those I've met who called themselves martial artiest were weak.

wayne hansen wrote:Have you talked to any older body builders or labourers

The real question is..."have you been to visit anyone in an elderly home recently?"
They don't look to great, do they?

windwalker wrote:

All of the real world examples I've seen of the skinny martial artist knocking over the huge bodybuilder happened when said bodybuilder didn't know how to fight. On the other hand, I've seen some supremely strong men with very little martial skill completely destroy weak yet "skilled" martial artists.

Obviously they could not have been to "skilled" as martial artists.
None of those I've met who called themselves martial artiest were weak.

Windy, he is right.
The big mistake is to view the person lifting as the creator of his Built body. No...biologically the body does it all by itself.
Yes his mind has the fortitude, but It's the body responding too and adapting too...Making "itself" more and more powerful.

So what do you think of Marco-nutrition?

The problem is that there's no way to know if the "lifting weights is bad for tcc" in the long run. For one thing, there's little doubt that being strong when one is elderly is better than being weak. Imo, tcc practice will build strength, and I mean "muscular" strength.

I think the question of how a tcc practitioner uses his strength is a completely different topic independent of the amount of strength that person has. A 200lb tcc practitioner will have more strength than a 125lb practitioner. More strength might be a disadvantage, but it might be an advantage.

I do agree that depending on strength is a mistake (because there's always someone with more). Otoh, I think having strength makes dealing with it the other guy's problem. One of my instructors would say that "tcc methods" are for when you're not stronger than the other guy. When you're stronger, make the difference his problem. Afa training effective technique, he'd say imagine that it'd have to work against someone bigger and stronger.

I'd be more interested in the anecdotal data of any posters here with regard to qigong + resistance training and not theory on one vs. the other. I haven't noticed a detrimental effect in my qigong (health-oriented mostly; I can't send anyone flying etc. etc. though) from a modest level of resistance training and certainly zero reduction of coordination of difficult moves (technically difficult footwork and strikes (of a ball)). On the contrary, building a better base of anaerobic endurance allows one to repeat those moves again and again for a longer period without gassing and with less dropoff in the precision.

willie wrote:

wayne hansen wrote:Have you talked to any older body builders or labourers

The real question is..."have you been to visit anyone in an elderly home recently?"
They don't look to great, do they?

Which ones the labourers or the bodybuilders