99% of tai chi is fake

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby dspyrido on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:26 pm

Although JW's kill or be killed view might be considered a bit extreme I keep thinking:

1. No one should really want to kill anyone but ignoring the fact that these are martial arts practices which have a root in defending & countering dangerous situations means forgetting where this stuff all came from. Not a good idea because tofu skills won't last against a sledge hammer.

2. When people talk about overcoming a malicious opponent without harming them I keep thinking there is something really wrong. Either the attacker is a 3 year old, was not serious about hurting anyone or a useless drunk uncle that needs to be put in line. It makes sense in these situations but if there is a real danger then thinking overcoming them with little force makes things very dangerous. Better to not train at all and learn how to turn & sprint really fast while doing a serpentine.

3. The Tai Chi forms all have moves that can displace someone and control them but I know there are also a lot of moves that can only really be applied on joints to frankly mess em up. So spending a lot of time learning to neutralise an opponent and very little time learning the methods of messing them up makes me think that they are not being true to the real TC. It's like doing kickboxing and saying ... no punches. Maybe it works as a training method but misses the big picture.
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Taste of Death on Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:32 pm

Controlling them but not hurting them is a polite way to say "fuck off". It should be done with a smile. Yes, like they were a 3 year old.
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:20 am

Treat a boy like a man and a man like a boy
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby johnwang on Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:20 pm

johnwang wrote: I will beat him up that

- he will not be able to take care of himself for the rest of his life.

In my today's book reading, I have read this again (if you can read Chinese).

非要打的他生活不能自理
I will beat him up that he will not be able to take care of himself for the rest of his life

打的你妈妈都不认识你
I'll beat you up that your own mother won't be able to recognize you.

Here is one more macho talk:

确定对手是敌人,只要其有取死之道,就不要手下留情,否则只会给自己增添烦恼

If you can be sure that your opponent is your enemy, as long as he deserves to be killed, you should not be mercy, otherwise, you will give yourself more trouble later on.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:34 am

dspyrido wrote:Although JW's kill or be killed view might be considered a bit extreme I keep thinking:

1. No one should really want to kill anyone but ignoring the fact that these are martial arts practices which have a root in defending & countering dangerous situations means forgetting where this stuff all came from. Not a good idea because tofu skills won't last against a sledge hammer.

2. When people talk about overcoming a malicious opponent without harming them I keep thinking there is something really wrong. Either the attacker is a 3 year old, was not serious about hurting anyone or a useless drunk uncle that needs to be put in line. It makes sense in these situations but if there is a real danger then thinking overcoming them with little force makes things very dangerous. Better to not train at all and learn how to turn & sprint really fast while doing a serpentine.

3. The Tai Chi forms all have moves that can displace someone and control them but I know there are also a lot of moves that can only really be applied on joints to frankly mess em up. So spending a lot of time learning to neutralise an opponent and very little time learning the methods of messing them up makes me think that they are not being true to the real TC. It's like doing kickboxing and saying ... no punches. Maybe it works as a training method but misses the big picture.



There is a tai chi saying

Yield only to return

Think of tai chi like a counter puncher in boxing
It is not Aikido ,there is no commandment not to injure your opponent
If what you were alluding to was true there would be no punches in the art
Ban Hou was known for his violence not only against opponents but also his students
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Itten on Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:59 am

There is no "commandment" in aikido not to injure your opponent.
"If your opponent cuts your jacket, cut his skin, if he cuts skin, cut muscle, if he cuts muscle, cut bone, if he cuts bone, take his life".
This is not referring to action/ reaction but reading intent, and being ahead of the opponent. It is also in line with the principle of force escalation that does not require decision making or change of body mechanics.
I am sorry that the public face of modern aikido is about as bad as modern Tai Chi, after all we are brother arts, but as many of you here are fond of pointing out, that's the times we live in.
On one of the video clips is some Philipinno panantukan, very nice. Slip blades in the hands instead of striking and it makes even more sense than trying to graft it onto MMA. Most aikido makes good sense with a blade but that's not good for public perception. Likewise, the throws of tai chi chuan, when executed correctly, are lethal or at least crippling.
Maybe the figure of 99% is a bit high :D
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:15 am

dspyrido wrote:Although JW's kill or be killed view might be considered a bit extreme I keep thinking:

1. No one should really want to kill anyone but ignoring the fact that these are martial arts practices which have a root in defending & countering dangerous situations means forgetting where this stuff all came from. Not a good idea because tofu skills won't last against a sledge hammer.

2. When people talk about overcoming a malicious opponent without harming them I keep thinking there is something really wrong. Either the attacker is a 3 year old, was not serious about hurting anyone or a useless drunk uncle that needs to be put in line. It makes sense in these situations but if there is a real danger then thinking overcoming them with little force makes things very dangerous. Better to not train at all and learn how to turn & sprint really fast while doing a serpentine.

3. The Tai Chi forms all have moves that can displace someone and control them but I know there are also a lot of moves that can only really be applied on joints to frankly mess em up. So spending a lot of time learning to neutralise an opponent and very little time learning the methods of messing them up makes me think that they are not being true to the real TC. It's like doing kickboxing and saying ... no punches. Maybe it works as a training method but misses the big picture.

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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:22 am

Só, all you killers need to share your experiences and tips.
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:22 am

Itten wrote:There is no "commandment" in aikido not to injure your opponent.
"If your opponent cuts your jacket, cut his skin, if he cuts skin, cut muscle, if he cuts muscle, cut bone, if he cuts bone, take his life".
This is not referring to action/ reaction but reading intent, and being ahead of the opponent. It is also in line with the principle of force escalation that does not require decision making or change of body mechanics.
I am sorry that the public face of modern aikido is about as bad as modern Tai Chi, after all we are brother arts, but as many of you here are fond of pointing out, that's the times we live in.
On one of the video clips is some Philipinno panantukan, very nice. Slip blades in the hands instead of striking and it makes even more sense than trying to graft it onto MMA. Most aikido makes good sense with a blade but that's not good for public perception. Likewise, the throws of tai chi chuan, when executed correctly, are lethal or at least crippling.
Maybe the figure of 99% is a bit high :D



I am only going by what O Sensei said
I was not talking about akijutsu
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Itten on Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:12 am

Respectfully Wayne, there are many differing translations of what Ueshiba said or did not say. I have spent a fair amount of time in Japan over more than a quarter century of aikido and opinions differ so greatly it is hard to decide what is or is not aikido. Senior practitioners and researchers make up their own mind. I was simply indicating that your comment suggests something that is not very accurate, especially since you do not practice aikido. It seeems you do recognize the dictum of Takeda aikijutsu but that philosophy definitely extends to aikido, be as kind as you can afford to be and only as severe as needed. The problem is that technique based training does not always allow for natural force escalation, that is one of the elements of CMA shenfa that has always appealed to me. Tai Chi Chuan may not be all that effective but Tai Chi rules ;-)
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:53 pm

Duplicate post removed
Last edited by wayne hansen on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:28 pm

I said aikido not akijutsu
You are right I don't practice aikido
However my friend Robert Caputo lived with both Ueshiba and tohei and recived the teachings by word of mouth
He introduced me to the great Sergei Sugano
When I was first learning tai chi from my teacher he was training with Sugano and used me as a training partner
He would show me the aikido technique and then the tai chi equivalent
Furthermore when I moved to Queensland and had no training partners I went and trained with Grahame Morris one of Suganos senior students
It was a student of Aikido who talked me into teaching again
I know this will sound big headed but it is just fact
Even though I can't remember the exact numbers
He a 4 th dan black belt said,I have trained with X black belts Y dan and above and none of them can apply there art like you
He may have just been pissing in my pocket but it made me start teaching again
So I have a little knowledge of the rhetoric as it was then and how it has changed for commercial purpose
Last edited by wayne hansen on Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby johnwang on Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:07 pm

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote:Have you killed anyone

I have not killed anybody yet. But someone tried to kill me when I was young. If one has to die, I prefer that dead person could be him and not me.

But if someone attacks my wife, I will beat him up that

- his own mother won't be able to recognize him.
- he will regret that his mother ever brought him into this world.
- he will not be able to take care of himself for the rest of his life.
- he will need to pick up all his missing teeth from the ground.
- he will feel that death is not that bad after all.

In order to do so, I'll need to develop "ability to kill" through CMA training.

Here is some more macho talks that I have read today.

杀一个坏人,就相当于救下无数好人。坏人不死,只会死更多的人。所以,你们不是在杀人,而是在救人

When you kill one bad guy, you have saved many good guys. When that bad guy is alive, he will kill many good guys. so when you kill that bad guy, you are not killing but saving.

等我回去请剑叔和骨头叔叔出面,打的他满地找牙

Let me go home to get my uncles and beat him up that he will need to pick up all his missing teeth from the ground.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Trick on Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:32 am

johnwang wrote:When you kill one bad guy, you have saved many good guys. When that bad guy is alive, he will kill many good guys. so when you kill that bad guy, you are not killing but saving.
is that a Buddhist saying ?
Remember the Dalai lama said something like that during a speach at the White House as his comment and support of the US war in Irak........The saying might hold some truth, but the Lama is fake
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Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:09 am

Haven't posted on this, but it begs the question, is it the tai chi that's fake, or the teachers?
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