99% of tai chi is fake

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby windwalker on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:55 pm

dspyrido wrote:Let me know if I got these groups wrong.


For certain people they will be able to approach a subject
from a common frame work others not having it will not be.

The history of taiji indeed much of CMA in gen is quite interesting and tends to explain
what happened, why, and at what points in history the changes occurred.

With out understanding this point IMO one will be always looking for the way it worked or is said to have worked, all of which
is a personal journey.

The most that any can offer are opinions or insights about their practices relevant to common view point or experiences shared.

I for one can understand that. As I stated at the beginning of this series I am not from the Neijia community and my own approach to the martial arts (Wing Chun) is almost devoid of philosophical discussion. That does not mean that I do not think that the martial arts cannot improve health or lead to self-cultivation.

But for the most part I believe that these other things are basically by-products of strenuous training in an environment where one is highly motivated and focused. And if you stop being focused you are likely to be punched in the head or thrown to the ground.

Nothing focuses the mind quite like the desire not to be hit or when fist meets face "RSF JW quote".

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/ ... -part-iii/

Some of the posters here are making the same journey that some of the old masters made rediscovering
or in some cases making their own arts.

In time new masters will emerge with new arts relevant to our time.
There will be always masters persevering the legacies of the past for those looking for historical practices,
or those that have achieved some of the skill sets of the past passing them on in a new updated format.

a little history

As the famous saying goes “Of Luchan’s students, Wanchun (萬春) got his hard fajin, Lingshan (凌山) was adapt as throwing, and Quanyou (全佑) was skilled at neutralization.” So these were his three best students (besides his sons of course). Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quanyou were Manchurian guards working at Prince Duan’s palace.

Wangchun and Lingshan had no desciples, Quanyou today is respected as founder of Wu Style Taijiquan.

According to family lore within Taiji circles, there were actually two other Manchurian students who obtained Taijiquan skill before these three, but they both perished during the invasion of Eight-Nation Alliance.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif

Interesting to note that noted students of YLC would be known for different skill sets and go on to develop to develop their taiji
reflecting this.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10544
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:31 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:Are saying those Taiji guy's where not very easy for you to throw to the ground because of their strong rooting and good yielding skill ? And when you punched their shoulders, did you knock them down ? Or did they just tell you that you have ok punching power but you did not knock me down?

Offense skill include

- knock down power, and
- take down skill.

IMO, The Taiji training over emphasize on "defense" and not emphasize on "offense" enough.

I asked them to punch on my shoulder. They never asked me to punch on their shoulder. You can't knock someone down by punching on his shoulder. What you can show to him is how much power that you can generate. When you apply that power on his head, that can be different.

Hard to be taken down is not the same as to have take down skill.

So you saying that yours offensive take down skills where really put to a test when you touched hands with those Taiji guys ? Because you acknowledge their strong rooting skill and good yielding skill 8-) ......Ok, I will stop this game...oh wait, one more thing, the shoulder punching thing, if I was asked to do it I most probably would not, maybe I would whit my pointy finger poke your shoulder, then you would say- that's not punishing power, and I would say- neither would it be punching power if you asked me to poke you in your eye......silly game this!
Trick

 

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:19 pm

Trick wrote:So you saying that yours offensive take down skills where really put to a test when you touched hands with those Taiji guys ? Because you acknowledge their strong rooting skill and good yielding skill 8-) ......Ok, I will stop this game...

Will you believe me if I tell you that since 1982, I have not met a single person when I wrestle (or play Taiji PH) with him that I cannot take him down?
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:34 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:So you saying that yours offensive take down skills where really put to a test when you touched hands with those Taiji guys ? Because you acknowledge their strong rooting skill and good yielding skill 8-) ......Ok, I will stop this game...

Will you believe me if I tell you that since 1982, I have not met a single person when I wrestle (or play Taiji PH) with him that I cannot take him down?

Of course I believe you, as far as I know no one has said otherwise ?
Trick

 

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:47 pm

dspyrido wrote:Seems like there are 3 types of tc people. They are:

1. I only do it for health and have no idea how to apply this stuff.
2. I do it for martial arts and train like a martial artist. Yes I do the forms & some push hands but also break them down to do many repetitions of techniques, testing against others, weighted training and conditioning. Sweat & cardio is natural and something that happens as part of training.
3. I feel that the methods in #2 are beneath me and violate internal principles so I will do more longer solo form sequences, cooperative sticking, master the weapon form at a great peformance level and read lots of books on the topic so as to have an opinion based on what others have said. Can't sweat because it means I am not being internal enough. Cardio is the same.

Let me know if I got these groups wrong.

You got those 3groups spot on ( I guess) There are probably a couple of more groups, and maybe some sort of hybrid groups of the above three, but otherwise those 3 are most certainly out there.
Trick

 

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby johnwang on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:13 am

dspyrido wrote:Let me know if I got these groups wrong.

The 4th group can be:

4. I know how not to be killed by using my Taiji skill, but I don't know how to use my Taiji skill to kill.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:29 am

windwalker wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Let me know if I got these groups wrong.


For certain people they will be able to approach a subject
from a common frame work others not having it will not be.

The history of taiji indeed much of CMA in gen is quite interesting and tends to explain
what happened, why, and at what points in history the changes occurred.

With out understanding this point IMO one will be always looking for the way it worked or is said to have worked, all of which
is a personal journey.

The most that any can offer are opinions or insights about their practices relevant to common view point or experiences shared.

I for one can understand that. As I stated at the beginning of this series I am not from the Neijia community and my own approach to the martial arts (Wing Chun) is almost devoid of philosophical discussion. That does not mean that I do not think that the martial arts cannot improve health or lead to self-cultivation.

But for the most part I believe that these other things are basically by-products of strenuous training in an environment where one is highly motivated and focused. And if you stop being focused you are likely to be punched in the head or thrown to the ground.

Nothing focuses the mind quite like the desire not to be hit or when fist meets face "RSF JW quote".

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/ ... -part-iii/

Some of the posters here are making the same journey that some of the old masters made rediscovering
or in some cases making their own arts.

In time new masters will emerge with new arts relevant to our time.
There will be always masters persevering the legacies of the past for those looking for historical practices,
or those that have achieved some of the skill sets of the past passing them on in a new updated format.

a little history

As the famous saying goes “Of Luchan’s students, Wanchun (萬春) got his hard fajin, Lingshan (凌山) was adapt as throwing, and Quanyou (全佑) was skilled at neutralization.” So these were his three best students (besides his sons of course). Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quanyou were Manchurian guards working at Prince Duan’s palace.

Wangchun and Lingshan had no desciples, Quanyou today is respected as founder of Wu Style Taijiquan.

According to family lore within Taiji circles, there were actually two other Manchurian students who obtained Taijiquan skill before these three, but they both perished during the invasion of Eight-Nation Alliance.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif

Interesting to note that noted students of YLC would be known for different skill sets and go on to develop to develop their taiji
reflecting this.

That is interesting and something that I have found on my own journey as well. Each of my master's disciples have gone off in our own directions. My master has his "special skill/s", I have mine and his other disciples have theirs. Being a teacher one needs to learn a breath of things, even if not specialising in them, in case future students do at a good enough level for them to learn and further develop it on their own.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:30 am

dspyrido wrote:Seems like there are 3 types of tc people. They are:

1. I only do it for health and have no idea how to apply this stuff.
2. I do it for martial arts and train like a martial artist. Yes I do the forms & some push hands but also break them down to do many repetitions of techniques, testing against others, weighted training and conditioning. Sweat & cardio is natural and something that happens as part of training.
3. I feel that the methods in #2 are beneath me and violate internal principles so I will do more longer solo form sequences, cooperative sticking, master the weapon form at a great peformance level and read lots of books on the topic so as to have an opinion based on what others have said. Can't sweat because it means I am not being internal enough. Cardio is the same.

Let me know if I got these groups wrong.

I wish I could! :'(
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Appledog on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:50 pm

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
Last edited by Appledog on Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:22 pm

Weight training has many variations. Taijiquan was (and still is by some) trained with weights, as is Baguazhang. I have met MANY people from #3. After 1, they are the majority of Taiji practitioners.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby cloudz on Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:30 am

fake, real ?

You lot make me laugh, for fucking realz. That much I do know, 6 pages already..
lol.

shut up and train, I'm coming for you!! ;D
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
George

London UK
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Appledog on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:08 am

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
Last edited by Appledog on Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Bao on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:21 am

Let me know if I got these groups wrong.


I believe that it's hard to generalize practitioners into certain groups. Everyone practice this or that way for different reasons. Maybe the most common reason for people to not trust that Tai Chi can stand on it's own legs and function as a martial art by it's own is that they don't have good guidance. Maybe they have no teacher who can use their art to full extent or maybe they don't have the patience or courage to walk that road?
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Bao on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:40 am

Appledog wrote:
In the same way, in johnwang's video B can be seen stepping to set up the technique and then applying a massive yank to a stationary opponent. This is not a video showing a technique where A initiated some sort of attack to which B responded. Let me be clear: this is an effective technique in Chinese Martial Arts, but it has nothing to do with Lu the Jing or Lu the technique (even if you want to separate jings and techniques into different categories, this ain't it). Proper lu -- as noted in the classics and in all top level taijiquan schools when you are learning pushing hands -- is an energy which is issued in response to -- or counter to -- peng energy. Issuing force against force (peng to counter peng) or the opposite, force against force to separate (yanking) simply cannot be tai chi's take on these techniques.


If you go against him with good leverage in a way he can not resist, you go against his yin and not his yang, there is no force against force. I think this version is pretty ok as an interpretation as lu. No need to always look for the ideal. You never get the ideal opponent and you won't always be able, or get the opportunity, to use your abilities in the most perfect ideal manner. IMHO, sometimes it's better to have a broader view on techniques and skill sets and not become too obsessed with the picture of the ideal. You can still strive for it though...
Last edited by Bao on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: 99% of tai chi is fake

Postby Appledog on Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:21 am

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
Last edited by Appledog on Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: nicklinjm and 21 guests