99% of tai chi is fake

[windwalker]

From another post that I felt should be addressed with out being off topic
in the other post. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26130&p=445081&sid=0d299a9a7b79d2127641349f94bb0d83#p445081

As Steve pointed out on some thread, everyone agrees 99% of tai chi is fake, bad, just forms, watered down, misguided, a sham, unicorns, etc. The problem (even on RSF) is no one agrees on the other 1%. People won't even agree on 8 energies. Perhaps people think it's Taoist fluff on top of a village art.

noted the post and thought some might find the reading interesting.
Having to deal with some of this among some of those I work with, often wondered why so many are concerned with
what they do not do, or practice.

Not a recent phenomena.

We have all encountered the debates before. Who was a “closed door” student of whom? Who can really claim to be a true inheritor of some style of Kung Fu? Of all of the criticisms that one can make of the Chinese martial arts, a lack of interest in politics will never be one of them. At the end of the day all sorts of debates in the modern Chinese martial arts seem to devolve into attempts to criticize or illegitimate the quality of someone else’s instruction.

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/ ... s-part-ii/

An interesting reading that might shed some light IMO the reasons behind a lot of the discussions here.
One result of many historical factors.

In short, our current martial arts institutions are an outgrowth of modern capitalism. They are a natural extension of our social and economic world. However, early 19th century China was not really a “capitalist” place according to our current understanding of the term. For the most part the economy was not monetized. Except for a small group of very wealthy individuals, most people rarely had access to cash. The Qing government didn’t even bother to consistently mint coins as they accepted tax payments in raw one ounce silver ingots or Mexican silver dollars. In short, while there may have been groups of people who wanted to learn the martial arts, there usually was not a really easy way to pay the teacher.

It seems that later generations of hand combat students, more concerned with identity formation than survival, came to see “traditionalism” as a goal in itself. This is a very different attitude than what we see exhibited in the lives of most of the early 20th century martial arts masters. While some of these individuals may have been socially conservative, as a group they are better characterized by their pragmatism.

Pragmatism, interesting word. meaning "what works"
the old guys, the MMA guys of their day,
they had to be.

[suckinlhbf]

As Mpstaples posted in another thread:-

As to training, I have a couple of things to say:

This kind of thing takes a long (long) time to develop. First you have to find that force, then you have to cultivate/develop it. So you have to ask yourself about your motivations, and if your motivation is enough to carry you through the years of focused work to aquire this ability. What part of you feels the need to have this ability? Do you have a need to break bricks or kill horses? What is that need about?

It is very hard to find this force. There is a tradition in Chan Buddhism (Zen) of something called "Skillful Means," which is all about trying to teach something to someone when there are really no words to even describe what you are looking for. When you are trying to teach or learn something that is essentially "experiential," you need a skillful way of trying to get at it. So there are Chan stories of teachers trying to get across something that is so subtle that there is no way of approaching it directly. And for the most part, you can't directly find it... it needs to find you. So what teachers do is try to create an atmosphere which will allow for such a discovery. But they can't make the discovery happen directly.

When I discovered this force in me, I found it to be extraordinarily subtle... as if it wasn't really there at all. It was small, shy, and seemed to want to hide, so that if I looked at it too hard, it would fade away. It had to be coaxed out, made room for, addressed with reverence and invitation. And very slowly, just a little at a time, I could then begin to see it more clearly, and then work with it, just a little bit. So the first big problem was to find that force, then...after that... you are faced with years of molding that force, learning to be with it, to flow with it, to allow it to be there.

Trying to do that while you are in the middle of a fight can be even more of a challenge, by the way. So that's another issue. But it helps to have a teacher, not because they can point you directly to where you need to go, but because they can provide the "skillful means" needed to open you to the possibility of such grace. Other than that...the training is quite simple. You simply hit your phone book or your rice-filled bag with the palm of your hand, and wait, and breath, and sink your breath, and try to feel something other than your own effort coming through your hand. Then you stick your hand in your medicine and go home... and do it again tomorrow, for the next ten or fifteen years.

Taiji is not fake so as other styles. It is the kinds of "force" to cultivate to make it real, and needs a teacher with the right skills to guide. The issues being how and where to find the "qualified" teachers. After this is how to get the "force".

[windwalker]

I used the title from one of the posters post.

tried to give some context by which many people judge other taiji practitioners by.

Mike was one of my first teachers actually we've talked many times about this subject. The point of one's practice is very relevant to what one is trying to achieve regardless of forces or skill sets developed, what Mike talked about was not theoretical it is verifiable and demonstrateable in usage. A departure from what seems to be by many talking about what others can do or not do .

Not about what they can do or not do.

Odd you should mention this as we just finished talking about this very same thing this morning.

[windwalker]

To be clear the post was not about whether taiji was fake or not or any CMA art. Only to illustrate some of the historical reasons for the many discussions concerning what Arts are true or not.

[everything]

It seems that later generations of hand combat students, more concerned with identity formation than survival, came to see “traditionalism” as a goal in itself.

Interesting, yes. This unfortunate attitude is probably a good part of what killed it off. Also, ironically, as we've noted many times, because it IS good for health and most people practice it as a health art and have zero interest in MA, the MA part disappeared (but for much more positive reasons). Nothing wrong with people pursuing a health art. Quite the contrary; health is much more important than MA. Without health you cannot do MA. Without health, what "self" is there to "defend".

[Giles]

.
Following on from this hypothesis, all of us guaranteed-not-at-all-fake-taichi folks at RSF should sew a defiant “1%” badge on our form demonstration silks…

[Strange]

are you serious?

[windwalker]

@ giles,

Dispite the title,

the point of the post was that historically there are many factors the might influence ones views of what they practice today that they may not
be aware of.

Not whether it worked or who's art is real or not.
Something that one has to answer for themselves.

A number or reformers during this period concluded that for the martial arts to survive they had to become more appealing to educated middle class individuals. Sun’s emphasis on health and self-cultivation was one way of accomplishing this goal. The Jingwu strategy of offering classes on photography or western sports was another.

This period of time is also important for the development of the five modern styles of Taiji, including Sun Lutang’s own offering that combines the essential insights of Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua.

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/ ... ts-part-i/

Whether one agrees with the conclusions presented in the article, the history is very interesting and might help one to understand some
of their own, or how others view points are formed.

[everything]

I read a popular blog explaining how fat surburbia is what causes US Soccer to be so incredibly bad compared to where we might expect. The results and rankings kind of speak for themselves. Sounds familiar right. It's a common phenomenon in so many areas, not just martial arts. If I were teaching MA (or sports) for a living, though, there are certain market segments that would be more attractive and more willing to pay...

Hahaha about the badge, though. Add an RSF logo and put the % sign in the taijitu and I'll order 5 for my PJs.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[johnwang]

I think 99% of Taiji people interest in "Taiji for health only". Since they don't care about fighting, the term "fake" won't apply to them.

[Peacedog]

As is mentioned here regarding tai chi for health, the over riding issue is that few pursue it for fighting. I've never met anyone in the fighting arts who was any good that didn't approach it as a full time activity.

The reality is most people do tai chi as a hobby a couple of hours a week.

The same thing happens with Army and Marine combatives training. Most guys get through the first level or two for promotion points and that's it. These same guys routinely get their ticket punched in bars starting fights with people who know what they are doing. As the saying goes," just because you learned the guillotine [a combatives hand to hand move] doesn't mean you fight in the UFC."

Sound familiar?

For the guys who are good at it, it is much more than a few workouts a week.

Casual effort a fighter does not make.

Combine this with the need to make a living and teachers coach to who shows up.

And the same thing can be said of anyone with skill at anything, excellence comes from obsession or something near it. Whether you are a CPA, cook, race car driver or dedicated family man it all comes down to the effort put into it.

[everything]

That's true. It's probably a bell curve, actually a skewed left curve (most people are at the bottom). It is insanely difficult to get to the right. I haven't in any endeavor, especially in sports and movement arts. I asked if anyone here is an ex elite (like pro, Olympic, national, D1, etc.) level athlete to get their take. There were a few high level, but no one claimed to be pro or Olympic level; the higher you go, the harder it is to get to the next level. People on the internet seem to think progressing in MA, especially TJQ hahaha, is easy.

[windwalker]

Personally I like the challenge. I'm good at figuring things out, and that's what you need to figure out this tangled mess which is tai chi where nothing is what it seems. You have to be very humble. A lot of people get burned and feel lied to, and they walk away... they are right to do so... but if for some reason you are willing to take it up the ass for years and years I am sure that someday there will be a light at the end of the tunnel for you... Right? Isn't there? Are you asking me or am I asking you?

Not asking any one for anything, I've answered my own questions.
whats up with "taking it up the ass" does this somehow make your point more valid.

I think 99% of Taiji people interest in "Taiji for health only". Since they don't care about fighting, the term "fake" won't apply to them.

Illustrates my point for posting the post. Historically there are reasons why this might be so, just as there are reasons that push hands is often used as a
guide for taiji ability something that historically was not done by the founders.

At some point the focus changed along with CMA itself.

As for light at the end of the tunnel and who is asking what.
You should ask your self, you seemed confused.

I am not

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.