99% of tai chi is fake

[windwalker]

While Sun’s legacy is also mixed in the field of Chinese martial studies, clearly he was an important author and an innovative practitioner. Yet the more closely we look at Sun, the more individuals we find with shared interests. Sun’s synthesis of the Daoism and the martial arts was his own unique creation, but his life and the subsequent reaction to his works show that there were both a number of other individuals asking similar questions and a general hunger among a large number of practitioners for this sort of discourse.

In that way carefully examining Sun’s life helps us to move beyond the more facile level of questions. Clearly working class individuals were capable of having aspirations for culture and self-cultivation, just like everyone else in Chinese society. Perhaps rather than asking whether the Chinese martial arts were ever related to Buddhism or Daoism (to any degree) it is time to reformulate our research questions.

1. Why were some Chinese martial artists in the 1920s and 1930s enamored with the idea of finding a link to possible ancient alchemical practices, while others insisted that such superstitions needed to be abandoned if the traditional arts were going to be saved?

2. How have questions of economic class and education interacted to affect the relationship between spirituality and the martial arts?

3. We rarely discuss it now but there were a number of wealthy scholars who collected swords and other important artifacts during the Qing dynasty.

They probably had some thoughts on these issues, but what were they?

4. Alternatively why in the current decade is the Chinese government generally more trusting of Qigong practice when it is embedded in a martial art than if it is practiced on its own in a religious or even a neutral space?

5. How did the martial arts come to be seen as a control for religious exuberance?

By better understanding the complex ways in which these forces have interacted in the past, we will undoubtedly give ourselves better tools for understanding what is going on in the present.

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/ ... -part-iii/

Thanks to all for the many responses

By better understanding the complex ways in which these forces have interacted in the past,
we will undoubtedly give ourselves better tools for understanding what is going on in the present.

The authors last comment sums up the intent of this post.
Questions posed by the author might offer a different way of looking at problems some have
voiced or have identified here, other then suggestions that something is not real or intentionally misleading by those teaching them.

The history is interesting

[everything]

In excerpts from Sun's writings, he states explicitly that internal energy is not "vain talk", that he was originally doubtful about Daoist arts but started to see the connection after long practice. He is also very clear he heard others speak about this connection. He didn't "invent" or "synthesize" it.

Edit: Bold is my emphasis.

The energy inside, from your chest to your elixir field, like when doing sitting meditation, becomes extremely quiet, the inside of your belly like an empty cave. The spirit and energy of your whole body concentrates on sinking to your elixir field, and thus the internal school of boxing and elixirism reflect each other. For internal energy, there is real evidence and not just vain talk. It manifests through practice, and after practicing a long time, you will yourself become aware of it.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... un-lutang/

I have practiced boxing arts since my youth. I had heard every teacher say that these boxing arts are Daoist arts. I was doubtful whenever I heard this until I had progressed to training the hidden energy. Hardness and softness had merged into one, movement felt miraculous, and it became spontaneous and natural.
Discussing it with my fellow students, we each knew something about it. However, once I had moved on to training the neutral energy, the quality of discussion about my new internal condition had changed. Those who understood the experience were often less willing to talk about it, and those who knew nothing about it would not stop talking about it. For that reason, I have put pen to paper in order to reveal it to my fellows.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -teachers/

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[Niall Keane]

A true taiji master should be almost unbeatable by anyone of any style. That's how advanced it really is. Unfortunately it's
nearly impossible to get all the right information and even with all the right info, it's still nearly impossible to master.

So if all you want is to fight, it would be much wiser to chose a different art.

I sort of believe that. But remember, the art has no problem being passed down within a family, you cant even choose if you have a good son or not. So I think it's actually quite easy to master so long as you have the correct instruction.

There we go...

Classic example of Dunning-Kruger.

So many fallacies... just accepted as fact... two people spouting utter nonsense and confirming each others error. Get a group together, start teaching and suddenly we have a cult spreading the disease of fake tai chi chuan.

A true master of tcc is unbeatable because ..... magic!

It can be passed down in a family.... taken as fact... yet most of the families offer no objective proof of their fighting skill unlike their founders. its been lost generations ago.
So one must make a "faith-based" assessment to arrive at this false premise. So why assume famous families carry on the martial tradition? Because they were told so.

Internal Martial Arts are full of this kind of logically weak writings and discussions.... Wang Cheng-nan was right... "the art is doomed to die."


Edit... I just picked the last post as I revisitled this tread... I haven't even bothered to seek other fallacies so I don't mean to single anyone out... I'm just trying to highlight how casual and unchallenged the acceptance of these unproven sentiments are.
TCC will never progress martially until the majority of its practitioners begin to take a good hard look at their "beliefs" and start to question everything.

[Trick]

If one to a certain degree gets from ones TJQ solo excercise teachings, a body structure that one feel relaxed but yet stable/strong in, a relaxed but yet clear and focused mind, a rooted but but yet nimble step, an overall increased awareness. 'Skills' that can be valuable in ones everyday life. Althought it is achieved from 'only' TJQ solo excercise I'd still call it TJQ and there is nothing fake about it. If one wish to be a fighter(pugilist) then one just further the above skills in to sparring excercises and maybe even competition fighting. In my mind one does not have to spar or enter fight competition to be allowed to call ones excercise routine TJQ.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[MaartenSFS]

More like 99.9%.. I've never met a [pure] Taijiquan master in China that I believe would fare well in a real fight except one, that invented his own hybrid of Taijiquan and Sanda (loved that bloke's form). All the rest were just good at Tuishou and seemed delusional about striking. I've met lots of masters that cross-trained in all of the internal styles that are badarse, though..

[Bao]

In excerpts from Sun's writings, he states explicitly that internal energy is not "vain talk", that he was originally doubtful about Daoist arts but started to see the connection after long practice. He is also very clear he heard others speak about this connection. He didn't "invent" or "synthesize" it.

Edit: Bold is my emphasis.

The energy inside, from your chest to your elixir field, like when doing sitting meditation, becomes extremely quiet, the inside of your belly like an empty cave. The spirit and energy of your whole body concentrates on sinking to your elixir field, and thus the internal school of boxing and elixirism reflect each other. For internal energy, there is real evidence and not just vain talk. It manifests through practice, and after practicing a long time, you will yourself become aware of it.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... un-lutang/

I have practiced boxing arts since my youth. I had heard every teacher say that these boxing arts are Daoist arts. I was doubtful whenever I heard this until I had progressed to training the hidden energy. Hardness and softness had merged into one, movement felt miraculous, and it became spontaneous and natural.
Discussing it with my fellow students, we each knew something about it. However, once I had moved on to training the neutral energy, the quality of discussion about my new internal condition had changed. Those who understood the experience were often less willing to talk about it, and those who knew nothing about it would not stop talking about it. For that reason, I have put pen to paper in order to reveal it to my fellows.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -teachers/

Interesting quotes. I've read the texts, but I don't really remember these passages. IMHO, it's better to try to have a little bit of distance and not make too much of it. It's too easy to put in your own beliefs and made up ideas when you read something like this. Body awareness and a deeper understanding of your body is important. But when you have learned to feel what's going on in your own body it won't feel very special or like something magic. You might understand your own body better, but you will still be the same person. Nothing else have really changed.

[Niall Keane]

See... I don't accept that Tai Chi Chuan consists only of handform and 2-3 tuishou sensitivity drills. I don't believe that one can simply add sparring and wrestling to that and get decent results. I come to that opinion having used other tai chi chuan methods to train myself and other fighters to achieve international success.

I cannot see how reasonable boxing skills can be trained without something like tai chi rolling thunder punching drills ( 20 mins with 2kg in each hand, 180 / minute, and 3x3 minute on pads, and then 3x3 on pads while padman runs backwards, and as the skill of hitting moving targets improves the pad man sometimes stops, sometimes moves forward and then back... so peripheral vision, awareness, range, angle, timing are all trained... something totally absent regarding punching / palm strikes in form and tuishou.

That's just one of many many drills... traditional tai chi chuan drills used to develop martial skill.

Learn to parry / evade / catch with footwork and adhere and drag / topple opponent onto your counter strike with only one hand... Five Element Fist... seriously useful training for fighters.

Exercised like jibigung, nei gung, drills like cai lang tuishou etc... fantastic for movement dynamics and so incorporating martially-relevent nei jia movement. These drills are repeated 1000's of times each day. 1000's!!!

Combinations... naturally flowing start from any angle combinations? ... Flying Flower Palm is the dogs bollocks.

Feinting or parrying with lead arm to counter with same lead in a hybrid cross / hook / jab type movement... infinitely useful... “gyrating arms” and the associated tuishou method “reeling silk” (wu style type)

Now these are drills in my “sub-style”, and there are many “sub-styles” of tai chi chuan from the big names to the more obscure... BUT they should all contain a training method that produces results and DEALS WITH the essential skills for any fighter. Form and sparring is never going to produce a tai chi fighter. Form is stylised, most the practical footwork absent, its a catalogue of related techniques that relate to each other via nei jia body mechanics. The Nei Gung training should therefore contain these essential dynamics of counter and recovery and flow and should train the practitioners body to move like that without even thinking about it.

This is not performance art, exaggerated and therefore “telegraphed” big dantian rotations and such belly dancing to impress the cripples nor convulsive fajin expressions that leave the issuer utterly exposed on the issue, recovering with some theatrical big and slow circles.... no... as the old expression says “correct punching should be invisible, the opponent should fall without seeing the shape of your strike.” as the classics state “suddenly conceal, suddenly reveal”... i.e. At our choice of moment to engender a deliberate response in our opponent. This level of combative skill is simply way beyond the understanding of those who don't fight. Because it's not really an “intellectual” ability... it's something that can only be understood with the aid of experience that has demonstrated how shit really happens, rather than how artificial reactions can be staged via slow, compliant and one-sided drills or demonstrations... hence every fighter weeps at the hippy-hoppy shit... because we understand perfectly adherence but also what happens next in a real way, not in a theoretically ideal vacuum. That understanding of our imperfect limitations is also core to understanding combat, and knowing what can and cannot be achieved or exploited.

Like.. in perfect conditions one can construct a building block on block... but earthquakes, high winds, fire etc.... One must design with a mind for what really happens too, the undesired shit!
Most of the non-fighter tai chi magic lads seem to be aiming at some sort of Buddha-nature mastery of perfect movement and application, the old snake-oil of perfect technique... ignoring the very fact that we all have bad days, catch the occasional cold, stay up late, drink too much on occasion... etc. etc.. and a REAL and USEFUL martial art should work by ACCEPTING the human condition not demanding sainthood.

And real Tai Chi Chuan is full of such awareness, Its very “softness” seeks out this human error in the opponent. It embraces the “way”, it does not demand complete perfection in an imperfect world but conditioned responses that embrace our imperfections yet can immediately deal with the issue.


And the theory that accepts the way, has drills that mould the practitioner to do likewise. We “give up the self to follow the opponent”, If we haven't trained our responses and programmed our technique through endless repetition how can we be spontaneous? How can we “arrive first”? How can we take in everything at once if we have to be focused on what our own bodies are doing? Yet... that is the tai chi boxercise way... endless fixation about irrelevantly small detail.

Sometimes the smallest things can cause catastrophic failure, but often it's the big, big things!

So many repeat long form as the master walks around correcting finger positions, yet they lack the drills to deal with the essentials of combat. How can they ever discern the “essential detail” from triviality? Because the master says so? Has he fought?


So, again...

If we accept that Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art, we can infer that real or fake should be dependent on delivering results that relate to fighting.

And the fighting focused upon is empty hand, sword, sabre and spear and other schools have also staff halberd etc.

So the “real” Slim Shady has to be able to demonstrate this at some reasonable level... you know, to validate the effort offers more martial competence than sitting at home watching tv.

As for tai chi offering benefits to other areas of life... for sure, many endeavours do likewise, and some of them could well be as particular to their efforts too. A lad who climbs a climbing wall 3 times a week may well have found health and strength and perhaps he's a roofer and finds his skill transfers into his job etc. But, if he hasn't trained for Everest or the Alps etc.. and doesn't know anything about the essential survival methods at high altitude, or techniques of anchoring ropes, spike shoes etc. well he can hardly be said to be training mountaineering? What he is doing is real... he's climbing up a wall... and it may form part of what mountaineers train and drill to gain their skills.. but its partial and it would be disingenuous for him to declare himself to be an accomplished mountaineer with so much essential skill left untouched.

My own Sifu once said to me of Tai Chi Chuan- “Niall, there's only ever a handful of fighters in any generation”... he went on to remark how on one of his last visits to his Sifu the two were talking about the classics. A woman who was also a senior teacher certified by Cheng Tin Hung interrupted them... Cheng Tin Hung told her to be quiet as she, not being a fighter, wasn't qualified to speak on the matter. Harsh? Absolutely! But I understand.

I've of course experienced similar... I'm coaching an experienced fighter, and a newbie offers to “help out” the fighter by “explaining” what I must have meant? The new lad hasn't a fuckin clue.. and perhaps innocent of that fact, he really believes he might have some insight to offer to the fighter?

I recall a seminar where Dan (my sifu) was indeed making some micro corrections to my form (but they were about a subtle martial trick) and some lads of another more health focused Wudang Club started sniggering... it was a great day for them... I never really bothered with them, to each their own, but they were delighted that I was being “corrected” it seems? I guess they felt I was being taken down a notch. I actually didn't notice as I was working on the skill and a complex transition. Dan exploded and bollocked them out of it... “how dare they laugh, when he was teaching me a skill they weren't capable of understanding?"....

You see...
To those lads they lacked the understanding and the experience that brings that understanding to understand that they could not understand.

I use the word boxercise a lot describing a lot of tai chi.. and its deliberate, not merely meant to be condescending...

Visit a boxercise class and they are snapping out at the air, elbows locked (damaging themselves) no shoulder rotational defensive movement, no coordination between defensive and attacking motions, no foot work, no alive guard...etc.... But it keeps them healthy, and its sociable, all positive! Its only when they presume to be as familiar with boxing as a pro, or worse still, they have the secret!!! and reckon that all they need to be the next Tyson is a few rounds of sparring that any fighter will go: “What the fuck???”


Now if people have spent years in a boxercise class being told its boxing, that really sucks. But deciding to insist that such actually is boxing is not going to make it so. Or rather it won't elevate the lack of skills. For truly the new-age and PRC campaign to mystify or wushuise Tai Chi Chuan has been very successful. Tai Chi is now only known as a boxercise for the old and sick. But those inept hippies pioneers who set up the state recognised regulatory bodies never elevated their art to martial relevance, they simply dragged us all down to their level in the mind of the public.

[windwalker]

More like 99.9%.. I've never met a [pure] Taijiquan master in China that I believe would fare well in a real fight except one, that invented his own hybrid of Taijiquan and Sanda (loved that bloke's form). All the rest were just good at Tuishou and seemed delusional about striking. I've met lots of masters that cross-trained in all of the internal styles that are badarse, though..

Maybe because the founders themselves did not learn from just one person or art. Then did not challenge or accept challenges by "tuishou" push hands.
They accepted them as offered, the skill they had at the time was very different which is what they were noted for.

"push hands" as currently taught to gain a skill, that was used in fighting has been IMO corrupted to be the way the art is used in itself with its on special competitions offering confirmation to those who compete in push hand events. It can and does lead to many errors that will tend to end badly for someone feeling that being good in push hands equates to being good in any real encounter outside of push hands.

In my case for example I don't see how someone couldn't finish the form in 6 to 9 months, get chi flow in 3 months and start push hands within 1 year. This is how dedicated students used to learn it hundreds of years ago. But as it so happens this is impossible for most people.

This is not how they learned 100yrs ago, at least not in any of the documentation that I've read nor of those that I've learned from who would be considered
very traditional having learned from others very close to either the founders or time periods involved in some of the changes.

The whole post was to illustrate how people arrived, arrive at some view points and the divide that comes from different experiences.

injuries accumulated and medical care was not great anywhere in the world. Even today a fighter or professional athlete would be considered past their prime at 30. The same was basically true for martial artists in China (the myth of amazing qi powers not withstanding).

This was clearly the time to settle down and start a business, either a guard company or a school. Sun was engaged, he had some prospects in life, and yet something seemed to be driving him onward. With Cheng, his quest was refracted in a slightly different direction.

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/ ... -part-iii/

The civil quality is the inner principle. The martial quality is the outward skill. Those who have the outward skill but lack the civil principle will be consumed by reckless glory. Discarding the original purpose of the art, they will try to overpower opponents and inevitably lose. Those on the other hand who have the civil principle but lack the outward skill will be distracted by meditative expectation.

They will have no idea what to do in a fight, and they will be destroyed the moment it turns chaotic. To apply this art upon an opponent, you must understand both the civil and martial qualities.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

Written by someone who had to use his art against others offering a balanced view point to those practicing his families art, "yang style taiji chaun".

The training methods and reasons for training changed. During the last 100yrs or so. In one sense everyone is correct in their own view points.
In another sense if one does not understand their view points, where they come from, how they developed over the yrs,
one can end up like this.,



This is not to say the teacher in the clip had no skill.
The question is what kind
Why would he feel his skill sets would work in a ring having never entered one

actually in light of the link posted it outlines IMO the why very well.

[windwalker]

If we accept that Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art, we can infer that real or fake should be dependent on delivering results that relate to fighting.

While I agree with this statement I would not use the word fake. As it implies that someone is knowingly offering something that they know won't work is not real.

The case may be, that in many cases some may not really know because they don't have
the experience to know nor have interacted with those who have.

its good to know what one knows, and what one does not. Honesty, clarity, and sincerity play big roles in this.

As a young teen practicing lama hop gar, watching people play taiji in the park, I felt at the time that it would never work against real fighters as it depended on exploiting weakness that anyone who has fought would not offer so readily. They train not to, if they do the result is immediately known, bad things happen.

Having said this, there is something, a higher skill level that can be developed outside of fighting, that can be used for fighting if one chooses too or not.
At a much later age I would devote 10yrs to studying this skill set having met those who have it. I my case I dropped everything else in order to clear my mind and allow my body/mind to feel and gain some understanding and usage of it.

Many have talked about woowoo, with out having the experience of it.
For those that do, as in myself and some others it does offer a different perspective from which to view things from.

As to whether skill sets derived from it, are practical one can only answer
this for themselves in their interactions with others.

[everything]

In excerpts from Sun's writings, he states explicitly that internal energy is not "vain talk", that he was originally doubtful about Daoist arts but started to see the connection after long practice. He is also very clear he heard others speak about this connection. He didn't "invent" or "synthesize" it.

Edit: Bold is my emphasis.

The energy inside, from your chest to your elixir field, like when doing sitting meditation, becomes extremely quiet, the inside of your belly like an empty cave. The spirit and energy of your whole body concentrates on sinking to your elixir field, and thus the internal school of boxing and elixirism reflect each other. For internal energy, there is real evidence and not just vain talk. It manifests through practice, and after practicing a long time, you will yourself become aware of it.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... un-lutang/

I have practiced boxing arts since my youth. I had heard every teacher say that these boxing arts are Daoist arts. I was doubtful whenever I heard this until I had progressed to training the hidden energy. Hardness and softness had merged into one, movement felt miraculous, and it became spontaneous and natural.
Discussing it with my fellow students, we each knew something about it. However, once I had moved on to training the neutral energy, the quality of discussion about my new internal condition had changed. Those who understood the experience were often less willing to talk about it, and those who knew nothing about it would not stop talking about it. For that reason, I have put pen to paper in order to reveal it to my fellows.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -teachers/

Interesting quotes. I've read the texts, but I don't really remember these passages. IMHO, it's better to try to have a little bit of distance and not make too much of it. It's too easy to put in your own beliefs and made up ideas when you read something like this. Body awareness and a deeper understanding of your body is important. But when you have learned to feel what's going on in your own body it won't feel very special or like something magic. You might understand your own body better, but you will still be the same person. Nothing else have really changed.

I'm not advocating people read this sort of thing, develop some superman fantasy, and only do qigong (unless that's what they want to do for non-MA reasons). I believe Sun wrote his books later, reflecting back, describing how his energy developed over time ---- after he had already become proficient with practical skills. OTOH, why not do both MA and qigong (or yoga). Can't really hurt and is likely good for you.

[Appledog]

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.

[windwalker]

Well how did they learn then? The progression is pretty clear, or should be...

The way they learned and how they learned is well documented, much of it was not much different then any other CMA from which many of them had studied before developing their own arts which have become to be known as IMA a distinction of their focus. All CMA arts are internal by nature.

In your own training of each posture, once you have learned them all, they are joined together to make a long routine, flowing on and on without interruption, one posture after another, and thus it is called Long Boxing.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

much like any other CMA practice

The time limits I gave are a little short, but workable if you're willing to practice for 2 to 4 hours a day. The progression and time limits are quotable from many sources, including Chen Yanlin's works which we mentioned earlier, also interviews with various people in the Yang and Chen camps. What did I miss?

Donno, everyone has to find their own answers in accordance with their views, problems arise when differing view points
have no common point of experience from which to draw from, more so when those involved do not care are are promoting their own.

Felt the article answered some long standing question I had, thought it might help others having the same questions
to either see or find a different view point.

Luck in your gym and developing your program

[johnwang]

It can be passed down in a family....

Do you want to take the risk to lose in the ring or on the map if your father is a national champion? You may be afraid losing and hurt your father's reputation. So you stay away from competition. You may even be afraid of accepting challenge fight. All your life, your CMA ability has never been tested. When you teach to your own son, your son may repeat your pattern.