Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:08 am

Some Chinese suggestions for movement or flexibility of the lower extremity:

Suō缩,luò落,zuò坐,tā塌,kāi开,hé合,zhuǎn转,xuán旋,tuō脱,tí提,sòng送,chōu抽,kòu扣

Google translated as the followings:

Shrink, drop, sit, collapse, open, together, turn, spin, off, mention, send, pumping, buckle,

I am trying to relate them to Tai Chi forms and anatomical movement, any comment is welcome.
Last edited by Yeung on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity

Postby everything on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:24 am

What is the required flexibility for snake creeps down? There is quite a lot of flexibility (and strength) needed. Probably all of those terms apply.
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity

Postby yeniseri on Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:20 pm

everything wrote:What is the required flexibility for snake creeps down? There is quite a lot of flexibility (and strength) needed. Probably all of those terms apply.


The terms lack a base for actual bettering flexibility of the "lower jiao" general musculoskeletal lower flexibility.

They rarely explain how to reach said level and most hover on explanations how to achieve this. At some point, activity by bending, stooping, etc with an active lifestyle with accompanying muscle strengthening will achieve this purpose. Someone once made a statement that the gates of Heaven are very low and and one has to bend (figurativelky and literally) with humility as opposed to a demon like present gym weight mentality (has some merit) in achieving this greater muscular fitness. Muscular fitness is good to a point. BTW
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:14 am

Snake creeps down?

http://www.archives-pmr.org/cms/attachm ... r1_lrg.jpg

Fig. 1

A typical TCC form (fundamental posture and movement): (A) preparing form with palms down; (B) starting leg posture with float up and down correlated hand work; (C) turn to left with hook hand; (D) side-load posture; (E) single-leg squat posture; (F) front-load posture; (G) single-leg bending and rising; (H) “golden pheasant” standing on 1 leg.
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:17 am

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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:34 am

Simplified Taijiquan, Form 17: Push down and stand on one leg - right side, Figs 132-138, pp. 69-71 (Revised Edition 1999)

Just to make sure how it is done.
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:40 am

I am trying to compare snake creeps down for example in Taijiquan with Kung Fu squatting stance (Pu Bu) and cossack squat (side squat), with or without the use of brute force or concentric contraction. Your comments will be much appreciated.
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:40 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o21lg4P ... e=youtu.be

My teacher practicing some from work, at the time he was in his 60s

He taught this to some of the younger people.

The training to do it was said to be around 3 yrs.
When I first started training with his group, I noted some squatting exercise that they would do along with some others.
Having a back ground in CMA I felt I could just copy the movements and do it. In doing so I damaged my legs took a week or so to really recover.

Things are not always what they seem..What I've learned some things take time and can not be rushed with out danger of damaging oneself.
His first grandson, was said to have practiced parts of the form under a table just like in the stories of old. His training was very tough.

Some of his students had such flexibility one could push them and not find a limit to their movement, their range of movement was just to big.
It is said that in the old days
Yang Lu-chan when performing 'snake creeps down' was reputed to be able to pick up a coin with his mouth, he was so low that it was like sitting on the floor.

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/ya ... uotes1.htm

Having said this, if one understands intent and how to use it, the bodies range of movement is not enough, the minds range has no limit... ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby everything on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:16 am

holy moly my knees kinda creak just watching that video. tremendous. sadly, I have somewhat lost some ability to squat low well from some sport tweaks (lack of proper rehab/prehab) and never could do snake creeps down well anyway. working on it!
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:26 pm

windwalker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o21lg4P ... e=youtu.be

My teacher practicing some from work, at the time he was in his 60s

He taught this to some of the younger people.

The training to do it was said to be around 3 yrs.
When I first started training with his group, I noted some squatting exercise that they would do along with some others.
Having a back ground in CMA I felt I could just copy the movements and do it. In doing so I damaged my legs took a week or so to really recover.

Things are not always what they seem..What I've learned some things take time and can not be rushed with out danger of damaging oneself.
His first grandson, was said to have practiced parts of the form under a table just like in the stories of old. His training was very tough.

Some of his students had such flexibility one could push them and not find a limit to their movement, their range of movement was just to big.
It is said that in the old days
Yang Lu-chan when performing 'snake creeps down' was reputed to be able to pick up a coin with his mouth, he was so low that it was like sitting on the floor.

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/ya ... uotes1.htm

Having said this, if one understands intent and how to use it, the bodies range of movement is not enough, the minds range has no limit... ;)



Interesting how low he goes in GST but uses old man stepping for fair lady
Would like to see him do the entire form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:43 pm

Most people cannot do the old men stepping as you say and meet the requirements.

Sometimes what looks easy is not so easy.
My point in posting this was to show the stories of the old yang stylist were not stories but accounts of what people saw at the time.


His style and form was very different from what I have observed of most other Yang style stylist. He himself would later say that what he was doing was just taiji feeling that he might have changed the form to much for it to still be called "Yang' " style.

For those asking in gen. I wonder:

what does one expect to do with it?
what are the requirements that require it?

With those in my teachers group who practiced this, it was not possible to physically push them to their limit before exceeding ones own.
For those understanding and able to use or focus their "intent" they didn't have too, at first touch it's over.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:42 pm

Pushing is not about physical limits its about feeling change and perception
I have pushed with people much more flexible than I am
Unless they dig a hole and hide in it they can still be found
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:51 pm

Since you've not encountered the people I've met and know I'd have to say
you really don't quite understand, not here to convince anyone.
Rather then derail the thread about something un related it might be
better to address it in another topic.

Do you have any thing to add regarding lower extremity flexibility

why it was mentioned in the past, used by some teachers and taiji styles
as a requirement before learning or being taught taiji?

Is it needed?

The legends tells of Ban Hou, a Tai Chi master who was teaching in the imperial court and one day walked past the horse stables after his class with the royal family.

He observed a poor stable boy mimicking his Tai Chi movements and confronted him asking where he learned it.
The boy responded that he was spying on the classes Ban Hou was giving to the royal family and picked a few things.
Further more the boy asked Ban Hou to become his teacher.

Hearing all of that Ban Hou responded: 'If you can touch your chin to your toes with a locked knee in 100 days - I will teach you'.
(read more here: http://www.guangpingyang.org/History2.htm)


When Wang finished bowing. his forehead red and bruised. Ban-Hou said to him. "If you really want to learn real Kung-Fu from me, you have to bend down to touch your chin to toe within 100 days." Wang Jiao-Yu practiced very hard daily and succeeded in touching his chin to toe way before the 100 days had passes and thereby became one of the only three disciples accepted by Yang Ban-Hou.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:01 am

Yang Ben Hou Taijiquan low stance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7WAoJkboJI
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Re: Flexibility of the lower extremity in Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:49 pm

windwalker wrote:Since you've not encountered the people I've met and know I'd have to say
you really don't quite understand, not here to convince anyone.
Rather then derail the thread about something un related it might be
better to address it in another topic.

Do you have any thing to add regarding lower extremity flexibility

why it was mentioned in the past, used by some teachers and taiji styles
as a requirement before learning or being taught taiji?

Is it needed?

The legends tells of Ban Hou, a Tai Chi master who was teaching in the imperial court and one day walked past the horse stables after his class with the royal family.

He observed a poor stable boy mimicking his Tai Chi movements and confronted him asking where he learned it.
The boy responded that he was spying on the classes Ban Hou was giving to the royal family and picked a few things.
Further more the boy asked Ban Hou to become his teacher.

Hearing all of that Ban Hou responded: 'If you can touch your chin to your toes with a locked knee in 100 days - I will teach you'.
(read more here: http://www.guangpingyang.org/History2.htm)


When Wang finished bowing. his forehead red and bruised. Ban-Hou said to him. "If you really want to learn real Kung-Fu from me, you have to bend down to touch your chin to toe within 100 days." Wang Jiao-Yu practiced very hard daily and succeeded in touching his chin to toe way before the 100 days had passes and thereby became one of the only three disciples accepted by Yang Ban-Hou.


You have no idea of the people I have met
I can't quite work out where I am derailing the thread
I know kao lien told the teeth to toe story but we have no idea if it is true or not
The ban Hao clip above is interesting but so different to kuang ping style that we wonder how they could differ so much in two generations with only 3 disciples
I see the benifit in this type of training for leg strength bot don't see where it goes beyond pistol squats
At the same time I can see a lot of double weighting
You talk about having knowledge that I don't have but I yet to see any proof of that
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