Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:52 pm

In another thread we compare the Taiji hip throw training and SC hip throw training. This remind me that many long fist guys have cross trained the preying mantis system later on because there are some moves in long fist that they can't figure out the application.

The preying mantis uses the "concrete" training method. Here is the "wrist lock" that

- You use one hand to grab on your opponent's wrist.
- You twist his arm.
- Use the other hand to press the back of his palm toward his arm.



The long fist uses the "abstract" training method. Here is the same "wrist lock". You pretty much just flip both palms. There is no

- grab intention.
- twist intention.
- press intention.



Which training method do you prefer and why?
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby BruceP on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:48 am

johnwang wrote:
Which training method do you prefer and why?


Practical without straying away from the ideas because the ideas are what make the method practicable for the individual. A method which makes the ideas immediately accessible to the individual on a practical level is preferable.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:52 am

I agree with you, John, which is why I moved away from Taijiquan and towards XYLHQ/XYQ.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:06 am

Some styles tend to hide possible applications. You can change your form and make any possible application explicit. It's up to you.

You can take a 20 movements form and drag it out to 200 movements if you want. You can turn a piece of wood into an oxe or a crane. It's up to you how you want to use the raw material that is there.

But only for a move as brush knee, there are maybe one hundred basic applications and a hell lot of variations of every basic app, so if you want to show and make every variation concrete, your form is going to be pretty long and take many hours to complete. So do you always need to make everything concrete? If you want to practice arm drag one day, you focus on that movement and make it explicit and concrete. So there's a good reason to have inexplicit applications and hide others. If you remember where they are and what you can do with it, you can take it out anytime you want and practice it.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby everything on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:36 am

need both
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:51 am

Bao wrote:Some styles tend to hide possible applications. You can change your form and make any possible application explicit. It's up to you.

When you kick on your heavy bag,

1. you can throw kicks one after another to develop your kicking power.
2. You can also do the following:

- Back fist to your opponent's face.
- When your opponent blocks it, you grab his blocking arm, and then
- kick his chest.

I like 2 better than 1. The reason is simple. When I train kick, I have also trained the "set up".
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby cloudz on Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:08 am

That's fine and you should do that. But at the same time that doesn't mean there is no benefit to just kicking the bag or just punching the bag too. Or just mixing up different strikes.

Training the set ups and or defensive motions involved in fighting can be done in shadowboxing or in front of the bag - or better yet with partners. But what you seem to suggest is that one is 'better' than the other, or more useful - which may be (more useful) for you, but that shouldn't be the point.. Really it's about progression and the benefits of isolation; I think the smart money is in using both. In your second example you didn't really work any striking combo, you didn't work power in combination, and any endurance benefit is watered down. Those are primary benefits of heavy bags, so it's like you're almost missing the point (their strong points as a training tool) of them.

As always there are reasons for practicing in different ways and it's always about marrying individual goals and attainments to ones training regimes.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:33 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby Pavel Macek on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:59 am

I prefer very concrete training. Like with a sparring partner.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:44 am

I'm quite sure all gongfu/wushu practice seem more or less abstract to for example an practitioner of (western)boxing. However, when I go through my TJQ routines it feels very concrete.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:17 pm

cloudz wrote:you seem to suggest is that one is 'better' than the other, or more useful ...

I also train combo on the heavy bag such as

- 200 punches non stop.

I also train 4 kicks combo (no hands) such as:

- right front kick, left front kick, right front kick, left front kick.
- right roundhouse kick, left roundhouse kick, left roundhouse kick, right roundhouse kick.
- right side kick, left back kick, left side kick, right back kick.
- ...

If I only have time to do one and not both, which one will I do? I truly don't know. It's like to ask me if I have to give up

- running (include stretching), or
- weight lifting (include heavy bag),

I also don't know which one I may prefer to give up.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:39 am

It's great to mix things up, and you're lucky John. I didn't mean to sound critical about training that way in front of the heavy bag; I've done it myself and would do again.
I'm a bit sad at the moment as I have just moved house (3 weeks) and mine is gathering dust right now in the garage... ):

When I say lucky, you seem to have all the time you need to train all the things you like. You're also in great shape for your age, putting younger guys like me to shame.
So whatver it is you do, or think even. Best of luck to you.

The abstract training discussion is an interesting one, I hope you get better replies than I have been able to offer. One of our differences is in how we view form training, what we use it for. If you want my opinion; My view of it I feel is far less technique-centric than yours. That in turn will feed into each of our views about abstract training in MA; moreso when it comes to form - which is the example you have chosen to illustrate your topic.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby RobP3 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:30 am

Trick wrote:I'm quite sure all gongfu/wushu practice seem more or less abstract to for example an practitioner of (western)boxing. However, when I go through my TJQ routines it feels very concrete.


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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:15 am

Bao wrote:You can take a 20 movements form and drag it out to 200 movements if you want. You can turn a piece of wood into an oxe or a crane. It's up to you how you want to use the raw material that is there.

But only for a move as brush knee, there are maybe one hundred basic applications and a hell lot of variations of every basic app, so if you want to show and make every variation concrete, your form is going to be pretty long and take many hours to complete. So do you always need to make everything concrete? If you want to practice arm drag one day, you focus on that movement and make it explicit and concrete. So there's a good reason to have inexplicit applications and hide others. If you remember where they are and what you can do with it, you can take it out anytime you want and practice it.

cloudz wrote:If you want my opinion; My view of it I feel is far less technique-centric than yours. That in turn will feed into each of our views about abstratct training in MA; moreso when it comes to form - which is the example you have chosen to illustrate your topic.

I agree with the above in that training time should include covering concepts, principles, and strategies. Brush knee should be looked at as a concept/strategy, not just a technique.

When doing combos, there is time for health and stamina. However, time should also be spent on using combos as if positioning an opponent, using deception, asking, transitioning from offense/defense, changing with their force, controlling, finishing them, etc. (Speaking in general. Not to say you aren't already doing all that.)
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:47 am

cloudz wrote:I hope you get better replies than I have been able to offer.


That reminds me; Bao gave a great reply I thought in relation to form and abstract training, something I forgot in writing the above comment.
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Re: Abstract Training vs. Concrete Training

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:46 am

RobP3 wrote:
Trick wrote:I'm quite sure all gongfu/wushu practice seem more or less abstract to for example an practitioner of (western)boxing. However, when I go through my TJQ routines it feels very concrete.


When I play air guitar it sounds great :)

As long as you feel as you're Angus Young on stage, I'd say you're on the right track....PLAY IT LOUD http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMjUyNjg ... _Ac%2520dc ;D
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