Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:24 am

What do you think are the most representative, effective and easy to understand/learn techniques in Taijiquan for Peng, Lv, Ji, An, Cai and Lie?
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:55 am

MaartenSFS wrote:What do you think are the most representative, effective and easy to understand/learn techniques in Taijiquan for Peng, Lv, Ji, An, Cai and Lie?


Why do you ask? I thought you didn't want to practice tai chi. If you want to understand them as the "qualities" or "jins", that are actually meant, there are no other way to learn than traditional practice that take time and dedication. If you want easy to learn techniques, just use the movements for easy to learn attacks, just transform the movements into easy movements and practice them on a bag or an practice partner. You won't learn pengjin, or Lujin, but you have a simple way to interpret the peng and lu form movements. :-\

Change:
Peng to a back fist,
Lu to a pull
Ji to a straight punch
An to a double palm strike
Cai to a downwards jerk
Lieh to a simultaneous drag and punch

Why you would want to do this instead of just practicing sanda, I have no idea about. :P
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby everything on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:07 am

Techniques (other than push hands) may be from combinations. I don't think people say one "energy" = a single technique, but it's an "energy" that can be used and combined in various ways.

e.g., split: armbar, or as Bao said, simultaneous pull/punch. Diagonal fly, which may use kao, cai, peng in combination to "split" someone's energy/posture/equilibrium. etc., etc.

this "abstraction" seems to bother/confuse people, but it seems like one of the most clever/useful concepts (if you know some "concrete" applications).
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby Appledog on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:44 am

MaartenSFS wrote:What do you think are the most representative, effective and easy to understand/learn techniques in Taijiquan for Peng, Lv, Ji, An, Cai and Lie?


It depends on what level you are looking at the 13 postures and how your form is put together. I've seen forms where the entire sequence is demonstrated during the move "opening of Tai Chi". So there is a difficulty in answering the question because the moves are arranged differently in the very opening, which is where all of these get signed into the form in an easy to understand manner.

I think what you are really looking for is a kind of qigong which breaks down the eight gates and five steps into primordial techniques, perhaps comprised of moves or sub moves from the form. Is that correct?
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:20 pm

Yes, Appledog, that is what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for short cuts, just figuring out how to train these Jin without doing Tuishou. I trained Taijiquan full-time for several years, so I'm trying to extract anything useful whilst moving on in a different direction. I don't do Sanda anymore, since I learned TCMA...
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:32 pm

Grasp sparrow tail/single whip for two variations of the basic 4
Lift hands to white crane/Ta lu for the lesser 4
The five are contained in those
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:12 pm

hand skill + leg skill = throwing skill

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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:06 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Yes, Appledog, that is what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for short cuts, just figuring out how to train these Jin without doing Tuishou. I trained Taijiquan full-time for several years, so I'm trying to extract anything useful whilst moving on in a different direction. I don't do Sanda anymore, since I learned TCMA...


I use pung, lu, ji, and an as basic movements to drill, combine, and use.

When working with a partner, the four techniques of ward-off, rollback, press, and push are the first of the thirteen dynamics to work on. Stand in one place and do the four techniques rolling in circles, then do them advancing and retreating, doing them at a middle height. Then do them higher and lower as well, practicing at all three heights.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

I changed the foot work to make the foot work circular instead of liner to go with the circular hands.
As some have noted depending on the aspects that one uses it can change the what, how and why the movements are applied and used.

For my self I looked at the foot work, and then adjusted the hand work and stepping to fit it.
The foot work I use comes from lama hop gar....

best of luck in your journey
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby Appledog on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:42 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Yes, Appledog, that is what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for short cuts, just figuring out how to train these Jin without doing Tuishou. I trained Taijiquan full-time for several years, so I'm trying to extract anything useful whilst moving on in a different direction. I don't do Sanda anymore, since I learned TCMA...


Well it's certainly an odd request. If you're not going to do tuishou and you aren't going to train tai chi, why hold on to something like peng lu ji an? If you really wanted to, you could use opening of tai chi, grasp bird's tail and single whip into a new form of your own device. But then there's no particular point to including those movements and not others, or those in lieu of others.

The other way to do it would be to create some effacious qigong exercise to show the jins one by one, and then put those movements into a new form. But this would be difficult without an understanding of the jins in the first place, esp. from doing tuishou. It also raises the same point as above, since these jins come from partner practice, why or even how you would train them separately in isolation from a system that uses them primarily for two-person training.

Ultimately I suggest you just walk away from tai chi in it's entirety. If you try to take peng, lu, ji and an out of tai chi I don't see how you will be able to train them further than how you know them now. This is, I suspect, why you can't just do it yourself and have to ask here. It's a fiendishly simple thing to do. I could show you a very simple movement that encompasses all 13 postures in one, and explain to you where each one is. But describing something like that over the internet is probably impossible.

If you really don't want to walk away from tai chi then you should probably pick up a super-short form. The 24 is really really good for this purpose but there are shorter forms that would serve your purpose as well.
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:06 pm

I'm not familiar with most of those names, so I surmise that they are Yang Taijiquan. I'll look into them.

Yes, David, that is what I am getting at. I want to do all them as partner drills in their most basic form, with footwork, then with applications, rather than focus on Tuishou. Is there any reason that you only work on the first four and not Cai and Lie?

Appledog, I don't have to ask here. I'm just looking for other perspectives. I don't come on here for instruction. I have a master and training partners for that. Knowledge from experienced people is valuable. Based on people's responses I can judge if they know what they are talking about or not - at least enough to give me some ideas. My goal is to streamline IMA as much as possible, removing anything and everything extra that hinders my and my students' progress. I hope that within three months my students will have more confidence and can defend themselves a little and begin exhibiting some internal power within a year. No one has time to wait ten years whilst knowledge gets handed to them like throwing breadcrumbs to the birds. They need to learn on the fly with punches coming at them. That may sound like Yiquan, but Yiquan is boring as fuck. I don't want to take it THAT far. I'm currently not interested in making any forms.
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby Strange on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:04 pm

to my understanding, anything other than the long cut is the short cut
i am not against trying out and experimentation
as long as it does not damage/harm the body
just sayin'
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:06 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
Yes, David, that is what I am getting at. I want to do all them as partner drills in their most basic form, with footwork, then with applications, rather than focus on Tuishou. Is there any reason that you only work on the first four and not Cai and Lie?


My perspective on taiji is more of a striking art, being able to do things at the point of contact. Those 4 combined with the foot
work, work well, and fit into my ideas of controlling the space, angles and distance.

I've had yang people tell me my taiji looks influenced by chen, something I've never studied,
and chen people commenting its not yang or chen
but what seems to be something different.

I've found freedom within my own work,
hope others find it in theirs ;)
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:11 pm

Ah, so you mean that Cai and Lie are more practical for grappling? I see. Lv is too, though, right? How much time do you spend on Kao and Zhou? I honestly feel like these are more practical in grappling that normal striking as well - especially Kao.

I feel the same way as you. I'm more of a striker as well. The good news is that Taijiquan can accommodate both.

People here comment that I look like a Russian. I've long ignored what other people think things look like.. :P
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:31 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Ah, so you mean that Cai and Lie are more practical for grappling? I see. Lv is too, though, right? How much time do you spend on Kao and Zhou? I honestly feel like these are more practical in grappling that normal striking as well - especially Kao.

I feel the same way as you. I'm more of a striker as well. The good news is that Taijiquan can accommodate both.

People here comment that I look like a Russian. I've long ignored what other people think things look like.. :P


nope, maybe they haven't seen Pirates ;)

off topic:

the creation story for taiji used is for illustrative use only not to be meant as history or fact.

Taiji is said to be based on the movements of the crane and snake as witnessed by a daoist monk “Zhang Sanfeng” “三丰子 “

“On one occasion, he observed a bird attacking a snake and was greatly inspired by the snake’s defensive tactics.
It remained still and alert in the face of the bird’s onslaught until it made a lunge and fatally bit its attacker.
This incident inspired him to create a set of 72 taijiquan movements.
He is also associated with the Taoist monasteries in the Wudang Mountains.”


This can be looked at in many ways,

Tactics “the way one trains to gain a skill”

Strategies “the way trained skills are used”

Movement “the type of movements that characterize the tactics and strategies used”



Many styles use the crane as a model for having specific qualities of tactics, strategies and movements considered to be useful to develop and use.

“For several years the lama monk Ah Dat-Ta “阿達陀“ retreated to the mountains to live in seclusion,
studying Buddhist texts and practicing meditation. He also hoped to improve his martial art skill.
One day Ah Dat-Ta’s meditation was disturbed by a loud sound.

He left the cave he had been meditating in to investigate and found an ape trying to capture a crane.

He was astonished. Despite the ape’s great size and strength, the crane eluded the great swings and pecked at soft,
vital points. Ah Dat-Ta was inspired to create a new martial art.”

“Tibetan White Crane / Lama hop gar”

taiji as practiced by most seem to focus on the snake motif.
Lama hop gar, has both crane and ape and trains each aspect very differently allowing
the practitioner to have a range of options.

I've changed the focus of my system reflecting the freedom
I found with in it.

Interesting in taiji the crane loses, while in hop gar, the crane wins ;)
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Re: Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:18 pm

MaartenSFS wrote: I want to do all them as partner drills in their most basic form, with footwork, then with applications, ...

You may try this. Both you and your opponent have right side forward.

1. You use back palm on your opponent's face, he blocks with right arm (Peng).
2. You use left hand to grab on his right arm, slide to his right wrist.
3. You then right back fist to his face. He blocks with left arm.
4. Your left hand let go his right arm, grab on his left wrist. You then move your right hand on his right elbow joint, pull his left arm across his body and jam his own right arm (Lu).
5. You use left foot to hook behind his right ankle, and use his left arm to push his body (Ji).
6. Your opponent steps back right leg. You use right leg to hook his left leg, and use both palms to push on his both shoulders (An).

1 - 5 may look like this.

Image

6 may look like this.

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