Most Representative Techniques for Thirteen Postures?

[BruceP]

The five directions is a Chinese philosophical concept prevalent in Daoist cosmology and belong to the terminology of Tai Chi Chuan. The five directions generate space, generating space generates movement, this movement is the five elements, through the creative force of the five elements, the eight trigrams are born. Organizing every combination of the trigrams in each direction means the 64 hexagrams. This is the origin of the concept of the 13 principles. The five directions are thus merely meant as directions and there was originally never any intention to regard them as techniques. Why? Because every posssible technique can already be found in combining the 8 techniques with the 8 techniques in the five directions. They are already there, so any other technique on top of this would be superficial. Now, I can only speak of what is logical according to classical theory. How people interprete it nowadays is different. If Chen Xiaowang can call the five directions whatever he wants, so can you.

8 Gates and 5 steps are pretty clear and practical without all that other stuff you wrote about. It ain't people calling it whatever they want. 5-steps is strategy for applying 8-gates method.

[Bao]

Practicality is always separated from theory.

[Steve James]

The practice is based on a theory. Practical is how the theory is applied.

[BruceP]

The practice is based on a theory. Practical is how the theory is applied.

Aaaannnndddd so it goes as with most discussions of practical method on RSF.

Theory is mostly all post-script when it comes to learning and developing tactile skills. There is no theory on how to carve knotted and figured wood. Just like testing fighting method against 'opponents', complex carving takes experience, practice, and more than those, innate tactile understanding of resistance, pressure, listening and yielding.

This thread was doomed to the halls of theory from its outset. Just look at the title. gah! Thirteen postures? Techniques?

Practical method is simple and easy to understand. Theory is for people who have no interest in exploring practical method beyond the effort it takes to type crap into their personal dictionary of 'knowledge'.

I'll bet you a loonie that Maarten hasn't taken a single swing with his belt. I'll bet you a toonie that Graham hasn't let his student play with fist-under-elbow since before he started that thread asking what's it for?

[marvin8]

I ask this every time the 13 postures come up
Why
Look to left
Glance to right

Is this an answer: faking/feigning to the left, before moving/attacking to the right?

This article seems to say that, Thirteen Postures of Taijiquan, from http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/powers13.htm:

11. Stepping to the Left Side After Faking Right - Ku

Left Side Moving Steps, Stances, after Gazing to the Right (You Pan) or faking to the right.
Rolling on one foot

Parting the Wild Horse's Mane
Waving Hands Like Clouds
Strike the Tiger
Deflect, Parry and Punch
Single Whip

Toe kicks with the left leg.
Heel kicks with the left leg.
Sweeping kicks with the left leg.
Jumping kicks with the left leg.
Side kicks with the left leg
Spinning kicks with the left leg.

Movement to the left and looking to the left is associated with the Element Water.

12. Stepping to the Right Side after Faking Left - Pan

Right Side Moving Steps, Stances, after Looking to the Left (Zou Gu) or faking left.
Rolling on one foot

Parting the Wild Horse's Mane
Strike the Tiger
Brush Knee and Twist Step
Slant Flying

Toe Kicks with the right leg
Heel Kicks with the right leg
Sweeping kicks with the right leg.
Jumping kicks with the right leg.
Side kicks with the right leg.
Spinning kicks with the right leg.

Movement to the right is associated with the Element Fire.

"Song of Look-Right:
Feigning to the left, we attack to the right
with perfect Steps.
Stricking left and attacking right,
we follow the opportunities.
We avoid the frontal and advance from the side,
seizing changing conditions.
Left and right, full and empty,
our technique must be faultless."
- "Yang Family Manuscripts," Edited by Li Ying-ang
"T'ai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions," 1983, p. 37

"Gu (or Zuogu - left look around) means to go forward sideways; that really means to close up to the opponent indirectly. Here Zuo (left) means sideway; Gu (look around) means look after or being careful. Usually in martial arts this term means defensiveness within attacking skills. So the main idea of Zuogu is how to rotate and advance forward from sideway with some defense skills. It is usually called rotate attack. It is wood which means straight and grow up continually. It belongs to Ganjin (Liver Channel). When the key point Jiaji is focused on, the qi will automatically urge the body to rotate and advance forward."
- Zhang Yun, Tai Chi 13 Postures (This webpage offers some depth of interpretation about the 13 Postures.)

Tim Cartmell's comment on the subject, http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/2 ... 1060716741:

Internalenthusiast,
Sorry, I missed your original post.

As I was taught, the Five Steps are the primary patters the body follows when moving through space. As Alex pointed out, they are not specific techniques of stepping (although variations of footwork methods are included), they are directions.

Qian Jin (forward advance)refers to either stepping or transfering the weight directly forward.

Hou Tui (rearward retreat) refers to stepping or shifting your weight backward.

Zuo Gu You Pan (gaze left, look right) refers to stepping or shifting the weight toward your right or left side (usually at an angle).

Zhong Ding (central stability) refers to keeping the centerline of your body stable as you rotate around the central axis.

Strategically, the steps are oriented on an eight point compass (with the cardinal directions and "corners"), or with the eight points of the Ba Gua diagram. The steps can be combined so that you can move in one of eight directions. For example, when facing off with an opponent, he is standing directly N of you. If you move directly forward toward the N, it is "Forward Advance," moving directly to the rear is "Rearward Retreat"... Moving to the "corners" (NE, NW, SE, SW) at a 45 degree angle is a combination of either Forward Advance/Rearward Retreat and Gaze Left/Look Right.

Turning around your central axis occurs no matter where you step or how you shift your weight, so Zhong Ding is a constant. When the steps are combined, you can step or shift the weight in any direction and maintain stability.

The importance of understanding the Five Steps and their directions is that the directional strategy of technique is "encoded" in the solo forms. All of the traditional Taijiquan forms are constructed around the Bagua or eight points pattern. Every step in the form follows either the cardinal points or one of the corners. The direction the body moves in the form tells the practitioner from which angle that particular technique is to be applied in a fight.

[Steve James]

Like I meant, application is putting theory into practice. "Theory" is a general as yin-yang or as specific as "attack the creases." However, this is just like the difference between strategy and tactics. Tcc is not just a collection of tactics.

The only valid argument against theory is that "it doesn't work in practice." Knowing the theory won't translate to skill.

[Steve James]

Strategically, the steps are oriented on an eight point compass (with the cardinal directions and "corners"), or with the eight points of the Ba Gua diagram. The steps can be combined so that you can move in one of eight directions. For example, when facing off with an opponent, he is standing directly N of you. If you move directly forward toward the N, it is "Forward Advance," moving directly to the rear is "Rearward Retreat"... Moving to the "corners" (NE, NW, SE, SW) at a 45 degree angle is a combination of either Forward Advance/Rearward Retreat and Gaze Left/Look Right.

Turning around your central axis occurs no matter where you step or how you shift your weight, so Zhong Ding is a constant. When the steps are combined, you can step or shift the weight in any direction and maintain stability.

+1

[wayne hansen]

I ask this every time the 13 postures come up
Why
Look to left
Glance to right

Is this an answer: faking/feigning to the left, before moving/attacking to the right?

This article seems to say that, Thirteen Postures of Taijiquan, from http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/powers13.htm:

11. Stepping to the Left Side After Faking Right - Ku

Left Side Moving Steps, Stances, after Gazing to the Right (You Pan) or faking to the right.
Rolling on one foot

Parting the Wild Horse's Mane
Waving Hands Like Clouds
Strike the Tiger
Deflect, Parry and Punch
Single Whip

Toe kicks with the left leg.
Heel kicks with the left leg.
Sweeping kicks with the left leg.
Jumping kicks with the left leg.
Side kicks with the left leg
Spinning kicks with the left leg.

Movement to the left and looking to the left is associated with the Element Water.

12. Stepping to the Right Side after Faking Left - Pan

Right Side Moving Steps, Stances, after Looking to the Left (Zou Gu) or faking left.
Rolling on one foot

Parting the Wild Horse's Mane
Strike the Tiger
Brush Knee and Twist Step
Slant Flying

Toe Kicks with the right leg
Heel Kicks with the right leg
Sweeping kicks with the right leg.
Jumping kicks with the right leg.
Side kicks with the right leg.
Spinning kicks with the right leg.

Movement to the right is associated with the Element Fire.

"Song of Look-Right:
Feigning to the left, we attack to the right
with perfect Steps.
Stricking left and attacking right,
we follow the opportunities.
We avoid the frontal and advance from the side,
seizing changing conditions.
Left and right, full and empty,
our technique must be faultless."
- "Yang Family Manuscripts," Edited by Li Ying-ang
"T'ai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions," 1983, p. 37

"Gu (or Zuogu - left look around) means to go forward sideways; that really means to close up to the opponent indirectly. Here Zuo (left) means sideway; Gu (look around) means look after or being careful. Usually in martial arts this term means defensiveness within attacking skills. So the main idea of Zuogu is how to rotate and advance forward from sideway with some defense skills. It is usually called rotate attack. It is wood which means straight and grow up continually. It belongs to Ganjin (Liver Channel). When the key point Jiaji is focused on, the qi will automatically urge the body to rotate and advance forward."
- Zhang Yun, Tai Chi 13 Postures (This webpage offers some depth of interpretation about the 13 Postures.)

Tim Cartmell's comment on the subject, http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/2 ... 1060716741:

Internalenthusiast,
Sorry, I missed your original post.

As I was taught, the Five Steps are the primary patters the body follows when moving through space. As Alex pointed out, they are not specific techniques of stepping (although variations of footwork methods are included), they are directions.

Qian Jin (forward advance)refers to either stepping or transfering the weight directly forward.

Hou Tui (rearward retreat) refers to stepping or shifting your weight backward.

Zuo Gu You Pan (gaze left, look right) refers to stepping or shifting the weight toward your right or left side (usually at an angle).

Zhong Ding (central stability) refers to keeping the centerline of your body stable as you rotate around the central axis.

Strategically, the steps are oriented on an eight point compass (with the cardinal directions and "corners"), or with the eight points of the Ba Gua diagram. The steps can be combined so that you can move in one of eight directions. For example, when facing off with an opponent, he is standing directly N of you. If you move directly forward toward the N, it is "Forward Advance," moving directly to the rear is "Rearward Retreat"... Moving to the "corners" (NE, NW, SE, SW) at a 45 degree angle is a combination of either Forward Advance/Rearward Retreat and Gaze Left/Look Right.

Turning around your central axis occurs no matter where you step or how you shift your weight, so Zhong Ding is a constant. When the steps are combined, you can step or shift the weight in any direction and maintain stability.

The importance of understanding the Five Steps and their directions is that the directional strategy of technique is "encoded" in the solo forms. All of the traditional Taijiquan forms are constructed around the Bagua or eight points pattern. Every step in the form follows either the cardinal points or one of the corners. The direction the body moves in the form tells the practitioner from which angle that particular technique is to be applied in a fight.

No

[BruceP]

No

Even though I agree with you, you're going straight to hell for that one

Appeal to authority - the grand ultimate tai chi cop-out

[MaartenSFS]

What the fuck are you talking about? This thread was never supposed to be about theories, just techniques/applications. Are you dyslectic?

Also, I have taken plenty of hits from my father's belt when I was a child. Not sure what you're going on about.. Highly presumptious of you.. I spar all the time, if that's what you mean...

I started this thread precisely because I feel that Taijiquan is too inefficient and easily misinterpreted as is and I want to remove the best parts of it and discard the rest. I may not even do that. I have learned all the forms and have used many applications in sparring, but I'm a big fan of drilling specific applications, not grinding abstract forms.

Man, I feel like posting on this forum can be such a waste of time.. I wonder what percentage of this lot would cower at the thought of sparring... Everyone seems caught up in never-ending arguments about convoluted theories. Start your owns threads about that shite and leave mine alone. I swear, if we all met face to face most of you wouldn't dare spout off like this. We'd show each other stuff and do somr sparring and that would be the end of it.

[Trick]

What the fuck are you talking about? This thread was never supposed to be about theories, just techniques/applications. Are you dyslectic?
....I wonder what percentage of this lot would cower at the thought of sparring... .

he he, yes I agree with you, some poster(s) seem to have an urge come off as great taijiquan scholar(s) and master(s), but I think most here have at least some experience of free sparring/fighting. However about the 13 postures, learning anything about that on a Internet forum is impossible, as you know now. If it was me I would go back to my teacher or find an other highly qualified TJQ teacher, stay a couple of years with that teacher and humbly soak up everything that was being taught. You are in China you speak and read Chinese you could go to Beijing or Shanghai or any provincial capital, there are many opportunities for you.

[MaartenSFS]

Well, next week I'll be back in Guilin and will work out some solutions with my master. Yes, the problem with online martial arts scholars is that I don't know if they are talking from experience or just theorising out of their arses. ANY time specific fighting applications or training comes up they start talking about the Classics, when actual hands-on experience counts for more.

[Bao]

Theory is for people who have no interest in exploring practical method beyond the effort it takes to type crap into their personal dictionary of 'knowledge'.

Wow, that was a stupid remark.

People can be interested in a the practical method and the history of an art. They are not mutually exclusive.

Theory has always been explaining models for practical things and it has meant ways to organize practical knowledge into teaching models. Theory is mostly nothing more than an intellectual coat hanger, it helps people keep what they learn organized and separated. Thus theory Is hard to avoid if you are interested in teaching or if you want to understand your own learning process. That means you need to intellectualize it. If someone says that the best way to develop punching power is to hit a bag 1000 times every day, it might be an expression of practical knowledge. But for anyone else who hasn't done that for ten years, that's a theory. You teach people about practical methods by theory. Your teacher says "Punch that bag to test your punching power". Before you have done that it's theory. So if you are interested in learning practical methods and have no interest of theory, don't learn a system, because any martial arts system is practical knowledge organized in theory. So if someone is studying a any kind of traditional martial art, even boxing, and says that he or she is not interested in theory, that person is just talking ridiculous crap. Ignorant to say the least.

[Bao]

Yes, the problem with online martial arts scholars is that I don't know if they are talking from experience or just theorising out of their arses.

You never know. Unless someone comes up with something practically useful. Then does it even matter?
Everything you ever learn from a discussion board is theory. So if you are so afraid of it, why keep dwelling here?

Every martial arts master alive have learned practically by following theoretical systems. Theory. If you are not interested in learning from others, why learn a system?

And why do you want to create your own system? You do a lot of theorizing there. So it does mean that you are nothing but a theorizing BS-er? Was that your point?

[wayne hansen]

Theory is just a way of explaining technique